MSPA fan-fiction

**Bardic Feline** · 08-11-2010, 12:13 PM

Saras, nextian, you've already said everything I wanted to say in regards to present tense, and very well! I just want to add that some of the best stories I've ever read were written in style.
In fact, one of the creepiest novel length horror stories I've ever read was written almost entirely in present tense, second person P.O.V. The author explained to me that he did it that way because it helped him hide specific details of the story...first person was too close and gave away too much of what the view point character was thinking, third person was too distant and revealed too much of what was actually going on...

**Ale** · 08-11-2010, 12:17 PM

Thanks for the link Tezrial! I think that place looks pretty nifty so far, and I found a fic that I hadn't read before

Your story was also really cute :3 I wonder what movie they were watching?

Arg! This might sound dumber because I accidentally deleted everything I had typed out

About the fanfiction as art, I would say it definitely counts as art! It takes a lot of creativity to produce an interesting and engaging story. While, yes, it takes effort to come up with an interesting picture/drawing/whatever concept and effectively illustrate it, I would argue that it takes quite a bit more to come up with an excellent fanfiction. Maybe about the same as a well thought out comic???

I have read just about every fic that has been posted here, and the quality is amazing actually. I haven't hated anything that I read, and just about everyone here is an above average writer. Several of you are astounding, and manage to produce an emotional response from me with each story. There are pieces in the art/romart threads which do the same, but I think you guys manage to do it more often. I would definitely say that writing counts as an art form.

I haven't actually posted any pictures or fic of my own, but I really appreciate what you guys produce.

tl;dr you guys are excellent artists! Keep up the good work

**PaulPower** · 08-11-2010, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by PaulPower

Now I kind of want to write John having his first look around Jade's house and noticing the stuffed Hass.

Well, here goes. Although after a little bit it segues a little bit into John getting down on himself about stuff, and Jade telling him not to (inspired by this rather sweet fic I saw while having a look round AO3). The idea here was to set it before Light in my continuing campaign to try and bring some sort of continuity* to some of my shorts, with the idea being that John takes some of Jade's advice on board and tries to be more positive about stuff.

* well, if I was going to fix up the continuity I guess I'd have to change the bit about Kanaya suggesting to John that he contacts Rose. Maybe I should get set up on AO3 and put up continuity-edited versions rather than wait for nextian & co to archive it?

Anyway, stuff:

Knocked the Stuffing Out of Him

**kmsumrall** · 08-11-2010, 02:58 PM

And We Come to and End (Part 6)

(Part 1) (Part 2) (Part 3) (Part 4) (Part 5) (Part 6)

After the story I will have my write-up.

And, here is if my write-up. Included will be some startling facts that might change your whole perception of the story. Read at your own risk.

I hope you all enjoyed this work. I had a lot of fun writing it.

**Cancer Cowboy** · 08-11-2010, 03:24 PM

Uhm, I just wanted to pop in and say that I've been reading this thread since it was about 6 pages old, and give some sort of sprinkly generalized praise towards pretty much anyone who's mustered the gumption to post a fic. Recently, it has not just been Fanfiction either, It has been good fiction, generally showing mastery of not only grammatic nuances, but also the characterizations and vocabularies of very distinct characters not their own.

There have been times when I've had to stop myself while discussing the comic, forgetting that some of the chatlogs or events I'm trying to reference weren't even in it!

Really It's Impressive. Thank the lot of you, thoroughly.

**ToreaderTornado** · 08-11-2010, 03:47 PM

ksumrall, what if I told you that when I saw that this was the last part, I went and read all previous five parts. What if I told you that I read strait though the parts, devouring the words like they were delicious delicious meals? And, what if I told you that your story was absolutely chilling, captivating, and altogether creative? Because, well, that is what I am telling you. You have just finished what is quite possibly my favorite fic on this thread so far. Really, this was absolute gold. Imagine me as Equius. Imagine this story as a blood color. IMPERIAL. FUCKING. PURPLE. Just...wow. I could write more but I fear that I am beginning to ramble.

**Wheeeeeeatthins** · 08-11-2010, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by sarasvati

I would have to disagree with your points on present tense, Valter!

[spoiler]Present tense... makes the story immediate: this is happening now, now, now. It keeps things going along at a brisk, steady clip and creates an engaging, almost movie-like environment. This is especially effective (and common) in short stories, where the challenge is getting the reader invested.

Most of the arguments against present tense used in the whole come from the fact that it is very awkward to parse as being told a story. It is just unnatural as a storytelling tool! Think of trying to recount any past events. Let's say for example, you are trying to tell someone about your trip to the store. Which one sounds more natural:
-"I am picking out the carrots. After that, I am picking out the cantaloupes. Then, next thing you know, I find myself in the freezer section--where I run into who else but Cathy!"
or
-"I picked out the carrots. After that, I picked out the cantaloupes. Then, next thing you know, I found myself in the freezer section where I ran into who else but Cathy!"
It has a lot to do with the nature of storytelling itself. And while it works well for short short stories (like you said), using it over a long narrative can get to be grating.

There are ways to better convey immediacy in your story besides writing it entirely in the present tense. Beginning writers sometimes use the present tense to make up for not yet being able convey immediacy in their story without resorting to something unnatural like present tense. Either that, or the free-flowing nature of present tense makes the story more intimate to the writer, since he/she is writing down raw thoughts. However, the present tense actually makes the story less intimate to the reader, since the story is less set-in-stone (the past tense helps to set events in place, whereas the present makes them seem less static).

Of course, present tense is a very handy tool to use occasionally. It can be used very effectively, like in surreal dream sequences, stream of consciousness scenes, or an extended scene compacted into a very short time-frame (like a few seconds). It's done wonderfully at the end of the story Bullet in the Brain.).

One last thing about it verb tenses: accidental verb tense shifts are the absolute worst mechanical error you can make in writing. They throw off the reader's immersion, discredit the narrator and disestablish the setting (since you don't know at what point the story is being told from). You must be aware every time you shift verb tenses, and make sure that there's a good reason for it.

Originally Posted by Bardic Feline

In fact, one of the creepiest novel length horror stories I've ever read was written in second person P.O.V. The author explained to me that he did it that way because it helped him hide specific details of the story...third person was too distant and revealed too much of what was actually going on...

There is the third-person limited point of view, you know. This is extremely popular in a lot of contemporary work: it centers around one character, and you can get into their thoughts and feelings if you choose to, but it doesn't go into depth about the things around them. That way, you don't have to have the story skewed by the character's narration while still having a viewpoint that limits revealing information. Or conversely, you could have it first person point of view from someone apart from the main character, like with the Great Gatsby.

**Ember** · 08-11-2010, 04:01 PM

Just dropping in with a few notes.

Breccia: Oh cool, you "get" Vriska! Hurray! The pesterlogs you've written for her lead smoothly into the "apologize for being disabled" debacle and, I think, serve to highlight what that was really about. Also, you made me care about Tavros. That has been increasingly difficult lately, so good job!

Sarasvati: Beautiful as always, my dear. Talk about getting characters! I love your account of Dave's relationship to words and literature and rap music. It makes so much sense, and I feel like I understand and appreciate him better for having read it. And of course what you do is art. No one has ever told you that? I should have gotten on the ball sooner, I guess.

Tez: Short, sweet, and very them. The perspective shifts were a bit awkward, but not terribly. Now the part me that loves fractured fairy tales is salivating over what could be done with the Witch/Knight dynamic.

Nex and Sarasvati re. Valter's comments: Thank you!!! Stories - especially short stories - that benefit from immediacy work well in present tense. Stories that benefit from the reader having an intimate connection with the protagonist work well in first person. Stories that don't might not. To say that present tense is inferior to past tense or that first person is inferior to third is like saying that charcoals are inferior to pastels. And incidentally, Nex, I am currently writing a story in past tense — the first I've done for a while — and the imperfect tenses are driving me nuts! Why are they so inelegant in the English language? Surely we could just have had (!!!) more suffixes instead of having to tack on whole auxiliary words. Urgh!

ETA: Wheatthins, I don't see how present tense in storytelling is inherently unnatural sounding. I do know what you mean; the first few times I read it as a kid it did seem a bit off and keep pulling me out of the story. But that was merely a function of my not having been used to it. It's been years since I've had that issue.

**Wheeeeeeatthins** · 08-11-2010, 04:14 PM

Stories about things that have happened have historically told in the past tense. News reports, accounts of history, etc.. This is because most of the time, you are describing in your narrative things that have happened. But don't take this as me saying "you shouldn't write in present tense." It's just you shouldn't rely on it extensively, because it can become grating.

**nextian** · 08-11-2010, 04:20 PM

That's um. That's not true, sorry! About 90% of the time, when I tell a story, I alternate fluidly between past and present tense: "So, I'm at the store, right, and I see this guy. He's wearing this RIDICULOUS hat. He turned around and he said to me..."

Or more usually, "So there's this dude Sam Wilkeson, he's a reporter in the Civil War. He gets onto the field at Gettysburg and he finds out his son has died. HE WROTE HIS DISPATCH NEXT TO THE OPEN GRAVE OF HIS SON." because I am a history nerd.

But that doesn't matter because spoken and written language are inherently different beasts. I also don't tell stories in third person when I'm recounting them most of the time, but that doesn't mean a story can't be conversational and casual in tight third person POV. (Which btw, thank you for bringing that up, because tight 3rd person is my baby. I don't consider 2nd person more immediate, exactly, I mostly find it useful for when I'm sort of using myself as the narrator to talk to the characters -- sort of like in MSPA, actually.)

**Wheeeeeeatthins** · 08-11-2010, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by nextian

But that doesn't matter because spoken and written language are inherently different beasts.

Exactly. That grocery store example I meant as "telling other people" through writing, at which point it becomes weird because it sounds like you are talking to another person. But there is a difference in interaction between reader and writer. Speaking is something that is actively happening between two people. Writing more passive. It's something that one person does at a set point in time, for people in the future to read. When you see something in present tense, imagine that the narrator is sitting there writing it all as it is happening. (And if at any point, they address the reader by using second-person POV, you have to imagine that you're there, too, chillin' with him as all of the events go down.)

If, in a story, someone is writing it as it actually is happening, that's perfectly acceptable.

**nextian** · 08-11-2010, 04:47 PM

When you see something in present tense, imagine that the narrator is sitting there writing it all as it is happening.

You have summed up exactly why I like it so much!

**reclusiveAmateur** · 08-11-2010, 04:48 PM

As an asshole who took Latin, I feel obligated to mention that what we're discussing is the "historical present tense" ;D Like Nextian mentioned, it's used conversationally all the time. I'll entertain other arguments against it, but "sounding unnatural" is not one of them.

I've always liked second-person, reading and writing, myself... that talking-to-the-characters dynamic, I guess. It just really clicks with me. De gustibus non est disputandum You can't argue about taste. ;D

(goddamn ninjas and this forum making it a bitch to check for them.

I just don't think that the narrator writing it as it's happening is jarring, or at all a bad thing.)

Also:

Originally Posted by PaulPower

Well, here goes. Although after a little bit it segues a little bit into John getting down on himself about stuff, and Jade telling him not to (inspired by this rather sweet fic I saw while having a look round AO3). The idea here was to set it before Light in my continuing campaign to try and bring some sort of continuity* to some of my shorts, with the idea being that John takes some of Jade's advice on board and tries to be more positive about stuff.

I really liked this! (and that fic at AO3 is mine-- thanks!

)

**Wheeeeeeatthins** · 08-11-2010, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by nextian

When you see something in present tense, imagine that the narrator is sitting there writing it all as it is happening.

You have summed up exactly why I like it so much!

I can understand first-person narrators doing it, because first person is closer to one person talking to another, or talking to a piece of paper. But sometimes, this runs into logistical problems. For instance, how long of a period of time is the narrator there for? Where are they reporting this from? If they're part of the action, how are they copying it all down?

And omnipresent narrators... I don't know, it just seems hard for me to wrap my head around why an omnipresent entity would say things happening as they are happening to people in a medium that is static.

I guess a point I'd like to point out is that it is not wrong to use present tense narration. However, it is difficult to pull off if you are not an experienced writer who knows all the nuances of its purpose and how such a thing would work. A large proportion of those who use present tense are not experienced writers, and they completely mishandle the tool. It's easier to say "work on the fundamentals first, and you can work outward later."

Originally Posted by reclusiveAmateur

It's used conversationally all the time. I'll entertain other arguments against it, but "sounding unnatural" is not one of them.

It's used conversationally all the time, but narration is different from conversation. Present tense can happen in dialogue because it's conversation. But sounding unnatural in narration is a valid criticism if you are simply and artificially trying to give immediacy to events that have already happened, and if it is not done correctly, can lead to breaking a reader's suspension of disbelief.

**reclusiveAmateur** · 08-11-2010, 05:22 PM

Honestly, I think narration should be more of an abstraction than an actual entity. "Narration" rather than a "narrator". (This may be why I'm having trouble with the Troll arc. There is a definite narrator there, and moreover, I don't like him.) "Who is telling this" (when it's not implied or obvious) is just not a question that bothers me, or even occurs to me. If there isn't an actual narrating character (who is not the author) implied, I feel no need to invent one, nor wonder how they saw what they saw. That's just how I've always seen it. *shrug*

**nextian** · 08-11-2010, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Wheeeeeeatthins

And omnipresent narrators... I don't know, it just seems hard for me to wrap my head around why an omnipresent entity would say things happening as they are happening to people in a medium that is static.

Yeah, who even does that.

We should probably take this to Art Discussion at this stage.

**Wheeeeeeatthins** · 08-11-2010, 05:30 PM

eh I don't have much more to say. There are times when present tense is a good tool, though it has legitimate faults that are exacerbated by inexperienced writers using it as a replacement for developing an immediate tone.
You say that the aesthetic of it overrides the faults it is given to, while I say the faults outweigh it. There's not much further to go on about it.

Originally Posted by nextian

Yeah, who even does that.

f!s: I don't think writing is mspaint adventures's strongest suit

**Assassin of Deadpan** · 08-11-2010, 05:47 PM

I like what you do PaulP, keep doing it.

**kmsumrall** · 08-11-2010, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by ToreaderTornado

ksumrall, what if I told you that when I saw that this was the last part, I went and read all previous five parts. What if I told you that I read strait though the parts, devouring the words like they were delicious delicious meals? And, what if I told you that your story was absolutely chilling, captivating, and altogether creative? Because, well, that is what I am telling you. You have just finished what is quite possibly my favorite fic on this thread so far. Really, this was absolute gold. Imagine me as Equius. Imagine this story as a blood color. IMPERIAL. FUCKING. PURPLE. Just...wow. I could write more but I fear that I am beginning to ramble.

If you did all that? Oh wait, you did say all that. Hmmm... Do you like pies? I can't bake them, it was a general question. I'll say thanks then.

Man, i have have zero ideas for my next story. I was considering writing some alternate POVs on and we come to an end, But I don't think it would add enough flavor to make it worth while.

**DocBeard** · 08-11-2010, 07:34 PM

f!s: I don't think writing is mspaint adventures's strongest suit

I dunno, Hussie's done some really clever things with his format of choice. I mean, I agree, sometimes the narration comes out awkward, but I do not think it is consistently so, and looking at how smoothly he integrates plot and character development is always a treat.

And to keep this from being too much of a segway: do you write? You're clearly technically proficient.

**Graven_Image** · 08-11-2010, 08:32 PM

HouseBan'd

(Title Unrelated, used only for the pun)

Here's hoping I don't get drowned again.

**kmsumrall** · 08-11-2010, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Graven_Image

HouseBan'd

(Title Unrelated, used only for the pun)

Here's hoping I don't get drowned again.

Very nice. I feel like there is a lot of references I'm missing. I'm ok with that. I can't help the feeling that Sam Cambell is a mix of the of bruce campbell and his character on burn notice names.

**Graven_Image** · 08-11-2010, 08:59 PM

And of course, there will be a chapter two.

I've got this one all planned out.

**reclusiveAmateur** · 08-11-2010, 09:01 PM

I'm not usually one for OC-fics, but for the "Guitar George" joke, I'll give it a whirl ;D

**PaulPower** · 08-12-2010, 02:06 AM

Man is strictly rhythm, he doesn't wanna make it cry or sing.

Alternatively,

He has all the chords.

All of them!

Yeah!!!!!!!!

But yeah. Hooked by the Dire Straits reference, and then it proceeded to be a very funny bit of fic. I'm interested to see where it goes.

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