II: The End

[Superfrequency]

the production has nothing to do with the music itself

Uhum. B-
Do you know what production is. Do you know what a producer does.

At its core, Plastic Beach is the absolute strongest of the three Gorillaz efforts in terms of simple songcraft.

I'd say that if you ignore the first three tracks(and maybe Sweepstakes as well) the rest of the album is impossible to deny as an album

So it's a solid album that is good front to back as long as you only listen to 75% of the songs on it.

It's like I don't even have to say anything.

[nixshadow]

This is my least favorite album, But still love it a lot.
It is lesser compared to the first album, as the first album..Created something great I guess I should say, But they didn't follow through with that on this one. I mean, He doesn't even do 2D's voice in this one.

Still good.

[Superfrequency]

Isn't 2D just Damon's regular singing voice

[Stij]

Kind of an odd album, but I like this song. Beautiful outro.

[Dacen]

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Kind of an odd album, but I like this song. Beautiful outro.

Is that... Victor Wooten?

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Starts around 1:20

[nixshadow]

Isn't 2D just Damon's regular singing voice

No, It is him, but it is a different voice.

[rj lake]

the production has nothing to do with the music itself

Uhum. B-
Do you know what production is. Do you know what a producer does.

Do you?

A producer does not make the music. A producer makes the music sound good. The production has nothing to do with the songs themselves. They could be completely unpolished, utterly shitfully recorded, and still be fucking awesome songs. The producer adds the shine, the tweaks, finds the best way to record the music, does all the little things(and sometimes the big things) that make the songs the best they can be, but the producer is not the musician(Unless they are one and the same, as on Plastic Beach.)

The songs might sound worse unproduced, but they're the same fucking songs either way. All that's changing is the window-dressing.

There are exceptions, of course; a drastic producer can take songs in a completely different direction, or force things in that the band or musician might disagree with, perhaps for the better. Or for worse. Not arguing either way on this point. It's not pertinent.

The point is that unless a producer is the musician, the producer does not make the music but rather produces it. Damon isn't the world's best producer, but he did what he felt like, and if he feels better about the end result, more power to him. As I've said, I wish the production was done by someone better at it as well, but the songs are still fucking awesome, and I can't complain in that regard.

So it's a solid album that is good front to back as long as you only listen to 75% of the songs on it.

It's like I don't even have to say anything.

For one, I don't like your attitude, Miss Frequency. If that is your real name. (and it's not)

The album is good back to front 100 percent of the time. What I said was that it flows as an album barring those songs. The rest of the tracks are still great, but they're misfits. They work better on their lonesome. But that's hardly a complaint; it's like saying that Tokyo! is a bad movie because the three short films it contains are better off being short films. (Note that I am not commenting on said film's quality here okay okay we're cool we understand each other)

In short: it's arbitrating for the sake of it. Sure, you might like the sequencing to be better, but too bad you are not Damon Albarn and famous and releasing albums under Gorillaz. (Incidentally, don't take that as a "you're not famous so you shouldn't be allowed to criticize" argument, because it isn't and also those are kind of childish. I'm just saying in general that regardless of anyone's wishes, Albarn released the album as it is now.)

The album would still be great if you put it on shuffle. In fact, I just did that. It was still great.

[Dacen]

What we have learned here today: Music is entirely subjective.


MOAR WOOTEN:

[Olnoname]

What we have learned here today: Music is entirely subjective.


MOAR WOOTEN

1) yes.

2) I can totally play that. and do Tuvan throat singing at the same time. Yup. I totally can. No denying that. Disprove it. Hah. I win.

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In all seriousness, I actually find myself enjoying Stanley Clarke's albums more. They just feel a little more like full songs to me. And then... there's Marcus. SUDDENLY SMV WATCHU GON DO

[Dacen]

Disprove it. Hah. I win.

AWWW MAN, INNANET

In all seriousness, I actually find myself enjoying Stanley Clarke's albums more.

Oh man, I love SMV, but I've never listened to Stanley Clarke on his own all that much.
I'm really in awe of Victor, both musically and technically. I picked up his Groove workshop DVD; Five hours of absolutely first class instruction in a masterclass setting (It's a recorded masterclass with actual students/participants) Really worth it to pick up, that guy knows his shit.

And then... there's Marcus.

OH YEAH, SO WHAT

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[Superfrequency]

kind of childish

You don't really seem to understand what production entails. Frankly, I find it quite humorous that you are attempting to school me on something I eat, sleep and breathe.

Within the context of electronic music, the producer does make the music. Plastic Beach makes heavy use of drum machines and synthesizers, all written and programmed by Albarn, who produced the record himself. All of the sample-based beats on the first album, which comprise about half of the record, were realized wholy and entirely by Dan Nakamura (the producer). You are embarrassing yourself. The logical conclusion of your argument is that the original version of Dionne Warwick's performance of Walk On By is more or less identical to the famous Isaac Hayes cover, minus "window dressing", because the composition is the same.

Production is as important to music as direction is to a film. It is equally as important as composition, and often much more so. Production and arrangement have everything to do with the music. You may as well be arguing that 2001: A Space Odyssey would be more or less the same film if Kubrick's nephew directed it in his basement and filmed it with an 8mm camcorder.

Also, you have summed up your statement in this out of context snip better than I possibly could. Please go read a book instead of just skimming the wikipedia article for "record producer" and acting like you know more than anyone who disagrees with you.

I don't take any issue with anyone liking Plastic Beach. But if you want to argue against the points I made to back up my opinion because I guess it's important that the internet knows how wrong I am, please actually at least try to sound like you know what you're talking about.

[Dacen]

Within the context of electronic music, the producer does make the music. Plastic Beach makes heavy use of drum machines and synthesizers, all written and programmed by Albarn, who produced the record himself. All of the sample-based beats on the first album, which comprise about half of the record, were realized wholy and entirely by Dan Nakamura (the producer). You are embarrassing yourself. The logical conclusion of your argument is that the original version of Dionne Warwick's performance of Walk On By is more or less identical to the famous Isaac Hayes cover, minus "window dressing", because the composition is the same.

Production is as important to music as direction is to a film. It is equally as important as composition, and often much more so. Production and arrangement have everything to do with the music..

I have a classical background, and the way that I, personally, understand arrangement is that it's a function of a composer, and not of a producer.

The producer, from what I understand, makes you sound great. Ever played a live show where your soundman is awful? Ever heard a badly mixed LP? That can ruin what would be a great musical experience for the listeners, and for the musician.
An album with no thought put into the placement of tracks is in need of the touch of a veteran producer to set that shit right. Producing is very important, no doubt.

But when I think of arranging, I think "Composer".
That doesn't mean that producers can't be composers, though.


Please keep in mind, that's just how I define it.
I hope this discussion ends very quickly because it's frankly getting pretty nasty and FRIENDSHIP IS PARAMOUNT.

[nixshadow]

*flails hands like a maniac*
Gorillaz is a good band!
No more yelling at each other!
*Shouts at people*

Brother made me listen to this today... Drug trip?

[Olnoname]

lol. Dacen, you and your bass-itude are GOOD. I remember seeing a video demonstrating how much Victor is a human metronome. It's just so hard to comprehend holding a beat like he can. Like I said though, I think I like Clarke's stuff because Victor has more songs that are literally solos, and while I like them, I prefer the sound of larger groups. But I can wholly understand why you prefer Wooten. (Side note: Flecktones stuff is great, but I actually prefer Wooten solo.)

Also, producers can have virtually no input or be incredibly hands-on. There're the guys who try to manipulate a band's sound to their own ideas, and there're those that just say, "hey, go in, make it the best you can."

Take what I say with a grain of salt; I've only ever met producers through a label I really didn't like, and they were ALL focused on making their band sound really great (pronounced 'generic').

[rj lake]

You don't really seem to understand what production entails. Frankly, I find it quite humorous that you are attempting to school me on something I eat, sleep and breathe.

As I find it humorous that you instantly assume that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Frankly, this is kind of insulting.

Let's go through this together, shall we?

The logical conclusion of your argument is that the original version of Dionne Warwick's performance of Walk On By is more or less identical to the famous Isaac Hayes cover, minus "window dressing", because the composition is the same.

That's not even relevant. That's performance, not production. Fucking hell. Let's take a look at what I actually said;

The production has nothing to do with the songs themselves. They could be completely unpolished, utterly shitfully recorded, and still be fucking awesome songs.

I am saying that the song is the same, because it is the exact same, minus window dressing.

I am not arguing about performance, here. Sure, take out Damon from the album, and put in, say, Britney Spears. Now everything's ass-fucked-up-the-wall different. This is assuming that everything else is still intact, of course. Assuming that the production is the same.

We're talking serious change to the mood of everything without production even entering the equation.

That's the performer/musician. That is not production in the least. Switching out musicians and producers and cover a song and you have a fundamentally different track because the performance is different; whoever works on the song itself, be it a cover or an original, adds their own flavor to the track.

In pop music these days, the producer is often the songwriter. That's why producers tend to have such an influence over music in general.

Take Nakamura's beats out of the first Gorillaz album and you still have the first Gorillaz album. You just have it differently. The songs are still going to be the same, for the most part, regardless. 19-2000 is going to be a catchy pop song whether it's recorded with a trip-hop influenced beat or with a brass band. It's still the same song, fundamentally.

Production is as important to music as direction is to a film. It is equally as important as composition, and often much more so. Production and arrangement have everything to do with the music. You may as well be arguing that 2001: A Space Odyssey would be more or less the same film if Kubrick's nephew directed it in his basement and filmed it with an 8mm camcorder.

I still could argue that if it was directed by someone else it would have the same story and characters.

Of course, the movie wouldn't be the same. I agree with that. It would be largely different, most likely forgettable, and not in the least as much of an impact in culture and etcetera.

What I disagree with, here, is the spirit of what you've written, and also I wonder if you've actually read what I've written in any careful way.

Here's what I mean:

There are exceptions, of course; a drastic producer can take songs in a completely different direction, or force things in that the band or musician might disagree with, perhaps for the better. Or for worse. Not arguing either way on this point. It's not pertinent.

Now it is. You've just made it pertinent. This shit is going into overtime over here.

Kubrick would be one of the exceptions, if he was a producer.

I would also say that Dan the Automator would be one of Kubrick's ilk as a director.

The screenplay is just as important, if not moreso when dealing with a "standard" director. Joss Whedon's movies are distinctly his own, as are Charlie Kaufman's.

In music, this goes even further. Songwriting is the vast majority of making a record. If a producer is changing the fundamental structure of a song, that's a hand in the songwriting process.

Furthermore, certain genres are more director-heavy than others. Comedy lends itself to screenplays, while action largely deals with the director's choices than anything else. Drama tends to be even. This leads me to my next, and most important point:

Within the context of electronic music, the producer does make the music.

I saw this coming.

I agree; in ninety nine point nine percent of all electronic music genres, production is the lifeblood; a Boards of Canada record is made or broken by its production, as is an Aphex Twin or a Daft Punk record. (With some, but little, exception, and I'm going to get to that in a second.)

What you're overlooking is that Plastic Beach is not, fundamentally, an electronic album. It's a pop album. With songs.

Songs.

The difference between songs and tracks is hard to define(and this is probably waddling into subjective territory) but maybe I can illustrate it with examples:

Let me put it this way;(going back to Daft Punk, here), Digital Love would be a song, Fresh would be a track.

An easy way to look at it would be that a song has lyrics, and a track doesn't, but there are cases, I think, of tracks with lyrics and songs without. Aerodynamic, I think, is a song. But Robot Rock is a track.

It's easy to cover a song and keep it recognizable with drastic changes; it's next to impossible to do the same with a track, because tracks are far more controlled and depend so much on sparse elements.

The Avalanches' Since I Left You album is an album of tracks, not songs. Neutral Milk Hotel's In The Aeroplane Over The Sea is an album of songs. So is Plastic Beach, dance album or no. If you record it acoustically, all of the songs on this album are still going to be the same, fundamentally speaking. On Melancholy Hill is still On Melancholy Hill.

Listen to this.

Now listen to this.

These songs are the same. Recognizable differences exist between the two, but the core is the same. That's what I'm trying to get at.

I'd like you to notice that they're the same song either way, and recognizably the same. Production might influence the way you hear this music, but the composition, the performance, the core is intact, and that's what's most important in the process of creating music.

EDIT: fucking hell this is tl;dr

my god

[Jitka]

Guys let's all just agree that Gorillaz sucks and move on with our lives

well okay DARE is a good song but that's really about it

These are good songs too

[Superfrequency]

I have a classical background, and the way that I, personally, understand arrangement is that it's a function of a composer, and not of a producer.

The producer, from what I understand, makes you sound great. Ever played a live show where your soundman is awful? Ever heard a badly mixed LP? That can ruin what would be a great musical experience for the listeners, and for the musician.
An album with no thought put into the placement of tracks is in need of the touch of a veteran producer to set that shit right. Producing is very important, no doubt.

But when I think of arranging, I think "Composer".
That doesn't mean that producers can't be composers, though.


Please keep in mind, that's just how I define it.
I hope this discussion ends very quickly because it's frankly getting pretty nasty and FRIENDSHIP IS PARAMOUNT.

Arrangement is very much a case by case basis, and is mutually exclusive from composition in many instances(especially when recording a cover), and often the arranger is not the composer or producer but will be called in on a project to beef up a composition. Because electronic music is so personal and small the artist is usually the composer, performer, producer and arranger, although most house or hip hop records will just credit the artist as having 'produced' the record, which makes sense in that context.

Production is very complicated, and it's much more than telling the engineer how you want the record mixed(with big labels, that is usually some suit's job, see 'loudness war'). The perfect analogy is a film director. Maybe they didn't write the story, but they are the primary creative force behind transferring the script to the screen. I really don't have the patience to explain every little thing a producer does at the moment but there are plenty of places to read up on it if you are so inclined. In short, they shape every aspect of the sound of the record and often have a hand in the composition, arrangement and mix.

Anyone who collects records will know how important producers are. More often I tend to be a fan of a producer's sound than actual bands, at least as far as disco is concerned. A personal favorite of mine is Patrick Adams. Aside from being the creative genius behind classic stuff like Musique, he and many other producers did a lot of one-off records with other artists and imparted his sound upon them. Artists I would not otherwise give the time of day. Moreso with disco than any other genre of the time, producers were more or less the whole record. The band themselves were quite often just a bunch of studio musicians assembled to play the producer's music(regardless of whether or not the producer composed the songs).

Don't worry, I'm done. There is no argument to be had.

[rj lake]

^I agree with absolutely everything here.

Sheesh, I wasn't confusing sound engineers with producers. I make and produce my own music, I should know the difference.

I guess my whole argument is coming from the perspective of being a songwriter first and foremost. I have no problem with the vice-versa, but I guess we're coming at this from different angles. (You being first and foremost a producer, me being a singer-songwriter)

Different strokes, and all.

are we on the same page now i hope so

I call truce guys let's all be happy

[Adghar]

Having only taken a cursory glance into this whole music production thing and also being a classical musician, I just wanted to say that I think the whole discrepancy boils down to differences of definitions.

I mean, let's take "Mary Had a Little Lamb" for example. Let's pretend it's not traditional and was written by a person named C. A. That is to say, C. A. wrote down on a piece of paper that a soprano voice should sing: E D C D E E E, D D D, E G G, E D C D E E E E D D E D C with the proper rhythms. Is this a song? Is this the entirety of "the music"?

Now let's say people by the names of A. A. and A. B. each come in and record it. Are these songs? Are they the same song? Did A. A. and A. B. "take part in making the music"?

Now let's say A. C. and A. E. come in and each write some different sick beats under that thing, and fill out harmonies, and detail instrumentation. Are these songs? Are they the same song? Did A. C. and A. E. "take part in making the music"?

Now let's say A. C. and A. E. hire some musicians to record it. A. C. uses some technology to do some mastering. Are the results songs? Are they the same song? Did A. C. and A. E. now "take part in making the music" if they haven't already?

etc. etc. etc. It seems to me that there are no official definitive answers to these questions, but under one configuration XFactorInfinity is right and under another Superfrequency is right.

[Superfrequency]

[rj lake]

http://hypem.com/#/track/1053170/The+Ra ... +s+on+Fire

[zil]

Raymond Scott. Dude was ahead of his time. Master of both jazz and electronic music at a time when there was pretty much zero overlap between them.

[Stij]

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Kind of an odd album, but I like this song. Beautiful outro.

Is that... Victor Wooten?

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Starts around 1:20

Bootsy Collins, actually, but Wooten is an alright dude.

[Dacen]

It really sounds like his voice. Man, that was weird.

[Superfrequency]

That is unmistakably Bootsy, baba

EDIT: Seconding lovely outro

DOUBLE EDIT: Holy shit, Buckethead and Bootsy were in a band together?