Pester Chum's are too long!!

[KrazehPenguin]

I didn't complain about WV or Jade here in the forums because none of that ventured away from "introduce character - random stuff happens." Even the Midnight Crew didn't feel contrived the way these trolls do. I think my real problem is this: there is nothing amusing about the pesterlogs at all. I think this is one of the great things about this comic. I don't like something, so I can say something about it and actually interact directly with the artist, but if you just want to discard criticism just because it's negative... =/

But he's not discarding it, at all. In fact that was a pretty detailed reply.

Also, reading pester logs because they're amusing isn't really going to amount to anything. The trolls story so far has been pretty tragic. And the main stories been pretty tragic too. And its hinted that things are going to be more tragic.

While I don't think that the humor is never going to leave the comic, I do think that not liking parts that aren't supposed to be amusing for not being amusing is pretty silly.

[Betelgeuse]

but if you just want to discard criticism just because it's negative... =/

He isn't not following your criticism because it's negative, he's doing it because it's wrong and most people don't feel the same way and taking your criticism to heart would be detrimental to his story that he is trying to tell. He looked at what you had to say and analyzed it and decided that it is invalid in this case, which he has every right to do as the creator of this thing. I think a mark of a good artist is being able to sift through criticisms and be able to pick out valid ones and discard useless ones, or ones that work against what he is trying to accomplish, and he's done a pretty good job of that so far. I think people need to start realizing that their opinions aren't actually that precious and that yeah, sometimes it turns out their opinions are wrong. Big deal, it happens all the time.

I mean, shit, we've been through this kind of things a million times already; people complained about WV and Can Town and Jade and even Homestuck itself when it first started because they had all these preconceived notions about what everything should and shouldn't be and thought they knew better than the author. Guess what? Once they gave it a little time and actually saw where Andrew was going with it, they were proven wrong. Over and over again.

Also I don't really see the big deal about having to actually read things. Why SHOULD the story have to rely on a bunch of panels with tiny captions just to appease a small handful of people who either hate reading or have ADD or something?

[Seppucrow]

but if you just want to discard criticism just because it's negative... =/

No, it's because your criticism is fucking stupid.

But okay, I challenge you to describe the "contrivance" of the troll arc, Mr. Intellectual.

edit: Also, concerning this:

Why change styles so very drastically? Why try to make a deep story?

Why should we care if he's changing styles and going for a deep story?

edit edit:

Also, having read all of the pesterlogs, my opinion of them is that they are a colossal waste of time. They impart 0 depth to the story and also they are boring.

I don't care at all that you find them boring, but how do they "impart 0 depth"?

[MyUsernamesMud]

Time to pack it in guys, the pesterlogs aren't amusing.
Any mirth you might have mistakenly attributed to them was probably just a result of Hussie thinking he could write endearing characters.
I mean seriously, who's he trying to kid with this cow stomach.

[Betelgeuse]

Also, having read all of the pesterlogs, my opinion of them is that they are a colossal waste of time. They impart 0 depth to the story and also they are boring. Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff is more engaging than any pesterlog. At first they were a little cute but now they all take the format
Andrew uses Wall of Text Attack!
SMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH!!!!
Inowar takes 1,000,000 damage!

I read it; I derive 0 joy from it, and it doesn't explain anything interesting. Way to waste my time.

Oh shit, I hadn't even seen the entirety of this post, or your subsequent ones. Let me amend my previous statement to include that Andrew probably doesn't give a shit about your opinion because you're a moron and an asshole, in addition to the other things I said.

[FordDent]

Two cents! I think that recently the absolute dependence upon the Pesterchum logs has been to the detriment of the comic. It would flow much better if such things could be portrayed within the comic itself or in short captions or dialogues, rather than having pages of extended conversation. I grant that the logs are often witty and fairly well-written (does my head in reading some of the 5tYL3s though), but when you have one on several consecutive pages, and they become utterly necessary to advance the story, I think you have to scale it back a bit. I understand that the lack of actual dialogue in the comic itself (a valid stylistic choice) makes the Pesterchum stuff necessary, but at the moment there is far too much emphasis on them.

B...but it's not a comic! It's really not! It's closer to a book with pictures in it than a comic, and that is really the part of this that I guess is causing confusion. The academic way to classify Homestuck is 'electronic literature,' which means that it makes perfect sense to have long bits of text, because it doesn't have to adhere to the definition of 'comic' (i.e. a greater emphasis on moving the eye from panel to panel or a greater balance between image and text (and even then, comic authors have been adding walls of text in their comics for years (Alan Moore does this, Neil Gaiman did this in Sandman, etc. etc.). It really comes down to a matter of preference or expectations, and in this case Andrew is subverting expectations!

Which is exciting, in my opinion, and not just because I think the story's awesome. It's exciting in an academic sense (speaking as a dude writing a dissertation dealing with Homestuck among other things, I can assure you that this is the case), too! The medium of electronic literature is getting something new and exciting, and if it happens to involve the bunny from Con Air, so much the better.

[VoltaicPhilosopher]

Oh shit, I hadn't even seen the entirety of this post, or your subsequent ones. Let me amend my previous statement to include that Andrew probably doesn't give a shit about your opinion because you're a moron and an asshole, in addition to the other things I said.

I think I love you.

[orngjce223]

a dissertation dealing with Homestuck among other things

That sounds awesome.

But honestly, it's the fact that most webcomics are just comics that happen to be on the web, and that this webcomic actually takes advantage of being on the web, that I rave about. It's not about the animation or the music, it's about the fact that Andrew knits them together to create a narrative so convoluted yet so complete that nobody would think he's making it up as he goes along!

I'm not sure I would've gotten into this format properly were it not for my deciding, one sick day, to read through the entire thing (I still remember that [S]John:Sleep was the last page that particular time 'round, and I still love that particular bit of music). But after the imposing archive binge, keeping up with the cutting edge of the story - in that we do IDE/Theorizing and connect parts of the story to other parts - is a very different experience from reading through it straight. And all the more awesome for it.

As the first thing I've ever really been a proper fangirl of, well, of course I think it's something different from what's come before and better for blazing the new trail!

tl;dr: I think Homestuck is awesome for putting the "web" into webcomic!

Good god, I'm starting to sound like Jade.

[autoglassmasterclass]

Personally, I find the pesterlogs to be excellent and I've never skipped one, but I'm just going to play devil's advocate here.

He isn't not following your criticism because it's negative, he's doing it because it's wrong and most people don't feel the same way

I think people need to start realizing that their opinions aren't actually that precious and that yeah, sometimes it turns out their opinions are wrong. Big deal, it happens all the time.

How can any opinion be wrong? Majority rules and all that, but you can't just label a person's thoughts as wrong. I agree that it's Andrew's comic and he has the final word, but aren't suggestions what this site was built around?

Why SHOULD the story have to rely on a bunch of panels with tiny captions just to appease a small handful of people who either hate reading or have ADD or something?

I was under the impression that a large percentage of the population of the Internet had ADD. I do.

Let me amend my previous statement to include that Andrew probably doesn't give a shit about your opinion because you're a moron and an asshole, in addition to the other things I said.

Yow! That seems unnecessarily offensive. I may not agree with what Inowar has to say, but he didn't specifically attack Andrew other than saying that he was disregarding his advice (though I can't really respect this argument) and that he was wasting Ino's time. He didn't call him a moron or an asshole. Additionally, I don't think a moron is a bad thing to be, or at least something not worth being persecuted for. Last time I made this point the person I was talking to was using a different definition, but eh.

Sorry if this is out of line.

[FordDent]

show spoiler

hide spoiler

a dissertation dealing with Homestuck among other things

That sounds awesome.

But honestly, it's the fact that most webcomics are just comics that happen to be on the web, and that this webcomic actually takes advantage of being on the web, that I rave about. It's not about the animation or the music, it's about the fact that Andrew knits them together to create a narrative so convoluted yet so complete that nobody would think he's making it up as he goes along!

I'm not sure I would've gotten into this format properly were it not for my deciding, one sick day, to read through the entire thing (I still remember that [S]John:Sleep was the last page that particular time 'round, and I still love that particular bit of music). But after the imposing archive binge, keeping up with the cutting edge of the story - in that we do IDE/Theorizing and connect parts of the story to other parts - is a very different experience from reading through it straight. And all the more awesome for it.

As the first thing I've ever really been a proper fangirl of, well, of course I think it's something different from what's come before and better for blazing the new trail!

tl;dr: I think Homestuck is awesome for putting the "web" into webcomic!

Good god, I'm starting to sound like Jade.

EXACTLY. More than any other example I've seen, Homestuck uses the medium to its full potential. There are lots of other comics out there, and some that take reader requests or commands in this style, but as far as I am concerned only Homestuck has gone all out on it. If nothing else, this is something that should be embraced rather than cast aside.

I for one welcome our new horse-riding overlord.

(And yes, both my MA dissertation and PhD focus (or in the PhD's case, will focus) in on webcomics in general and Homestuck in particular at one point or another, because I am a huge nerd. But if I had to read one more crappy work of electronic literature I was going to fly off the fucking handle and this is a great break.)

[Zuki]

EXACTLY. More than any other example I've seen, Homestuck uses the medium to its full potential. There are lots of other comics out there, and some that take reader requests or commands in this style, but as far as I am concerned only Homestuck has gone all out on it. If nothing else, this is something that should be embraced rather than cast aside.

I for one welcome our new horse-riding overlord.

(And yes, both my MA dissertation and PhD focus (or in the PhD's case, will focus) in on webcomics in general and Homestuck in particular at one point or another, because I am a huge nerd. But if I had to read one more crappy work of electronic literature I was going to fly off the fucking handle and this is a great break.)

Knowing how dissertations and PhD's go, it could be quite some time before you actually finish this. But just the same, I hope to be able to look it up and read it someday.

[MrCheeze]

When Jade was first introduced, a lot of people disliked her because they thought she was keeping us away from the "real" story.

I think this is an important point. I often see remarks about how certain developments are diversions from the "real story". When in fact this elusive "real story" is happening right then and there. It just wasn't developing as expected, unfolding into what is essentially a fanfictionalized shadow in the reader's mind of what the story must become. Disappointment and agitation follow. But usually these attitudes dissipate when the relevance of the new direction sinks in. This is an unfortunate symptom of the fact that we're reading this live, and have to wait for stuff to pan out.

The first switch to the WV arc seemed like "filler" at the time. It was proven not to be. In retrospect, the thought of that arc functioning as a superfluous diversion is pretty laughable.

The troll arc is moving us forward every bit as much as everything that has ever happened. It is just not going to follow the trail that you have blazed for the plot already in your imagination. It would be quite unfortunate if it did.

I realised from the start what you're saying here, but I think the problem he (and maybe other people, I dunno) have comes from the fact that the troll arc really isn't all that entertaining (like the intermission) because it's like going back to the beginning. You'll recall that's when people were complaining about Homestuck the most. Of course, that faded over time as a few people left and the rest just sat back and enjoyed, so I guess the conclusion here is... just keep doing what you're doing?

[nextian]

(And yes, both my MA dissertation and PhD focus (or in the PhD's case, will focus) in on webcomics in general and Homestuck in particular at one point or another, because I am a huge nerd. But if I had to read one more crappy work of electronic literature I was going to fly off the fucking handle and this is a great break.)

I too want to read this, if only so that I can hear, somewhere, far off in the distance, Scott McCloud rising from his bed of ridiculousness and wheezing I was riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Betelgeuse]

How can any opinion be wrong? Majority rules and all that, but you can't just label a person's thoughts as wrong. I agree that it's Andrew's comic and he has the final word, but aren't suggestions what this site was built around?

I honestly have no idea where people developed this idea that opinions are pristine and unassailable truths just because somebody thinks them. This is utter horsecrap. An opinion can absolutely be wrong if they are based on untruths or on a lack of information. You can call that an "uninformed opinion" all you want, I'll call it what it is: a wrong opinion. Let me reiterate: opinions are not sacred, people's thoughts are often downright stupid and wrong, and they should stop holding them so dear.

Yow! That seems unnecessarily offensive. I may not agree with what Inowar has to say, but he didn't specifically attack Andrew other than saying that he was disregarding his advice (though I can't really respect this argument) and that he was wasting Ino's time. He didn't call him a moron or an asshole. Additionally, I don't think a moron is a bad thing to be, or at least something not worth being persecuted for. Last time I made this point the person I was talking to was using a different definition, but eh.

Sorry if this is out of line.

Okay, I'm going to assume you didn't read anything this guy actually said, so let me highlight a few things for you here.

This is why the guy is an asshole:

Trolls: A Huge Pile of Intolerable Crapstain.

Also, having read all of the pesterlogs, my opinion of them is that they are a colossal waste of time

they are boring

[with regard to Andrew having the nerve to post pesterlogs:] Way to waste my time.

Reading is a fine thing that I tend to enjoy. Unfortunately, here in this comic, it has been transformed into a torturous labor.

Now upwards of 90% of the content of this is poorly constructed dialogue

Excuse me for being uninterested in such literary tripe.

And here is why he is a moron:

Why change styles so very drastically? Why try to make a deep story?

They [pesterlogs] impart 0 depth to the story

and it [pesterlog text] doesn't explain anything interesting

I haven't really organized what exactly it is that I dislike about what is going on. It's just really frustrating to be so far along a story and have it essentially interrupted with "plot".

The intermission was fine because it didn't pretend to be related to the story

but if you just want to discard criticism just because it's negative... =/

And here we come full circle on the topic of wrong opinions. Your assessment of my post to him being unnecessarily harsh was a wrong opinion, because you formed this opinion without taking the whole situation into consideration.

[Tenebrais]

tl;dr: I think Homestuck is awesome for putting the "web" into webcomic!

This is so true. I have never come across a webcomic that incorporates minigames before. Nor one with even one soundtrack album. Nor one that (at least in the past) allowed such strong contribution from the readership.

Heck, the only other comic I can think of that even included animation was Bob & George way back when (which was one of the first sprite comics, which most later ones copied in some way); and that was only for special pages rather than the matter of course that it is for Homestuck and a lot of Problem Sleuth. Kind of odd, given B&G's status as the genre codifier, that such touches never really took off elsewhere. At least among sprite comics, which Homestuck is (of a sort). I can appreciate the difficulty of animating a comic drawn from scratch regularly.

[deathsbuddy]

I don't think there's actually a type of media that can reliably classify Homestuck. Someone try to prove me wrong if you want, but I certainly don't read it as a webcomic.

[The_Second_Beast]

I'm not sure if this is really the right place to put this, but since a few different people in this thread seem really interested in the topic of online fiction that uses the medium to its fullest, may I recommend Kid Radd (sorry for the TV Tropes link, but it has links to places to download the comic)? In tone, subject, and themes, it's a lot like MS Paint Adventures! I think anyone who likes MSPA should definitely check it out.

[nextian]

I was just going to say Kid Radd! That thing is the bomb.

[MyUsernamesMud]

fun fact: Mark Hadley of the MSPA music team wrote the Kid Radd theme

[MrCheeze]

I'm not sure if this is really the right place to put this, but since a few different people in this thread seem really interested in the topic of online fiction that uses the medium to its fullest, may I recommend Kid Radd (sorry for the TV Tropes link, but it has links to places to download the comic)? In tone, subject, and themes, it's a lot like MS Paint Adventures! I think anyone who likes MSPA should definitely check it out.

1000th'd.

fun fact: Mark Hadley of the MSPA music team wrote the Kid Radd theme

He posted the music here:
viewtopic.php?p=249579#p249579
By the way, the KR game includes the original IT version of the music.

[PaulPower]

Adding my name to the "Kid Radd is brilliant" list. Just a shame that browser evolution has not treated it well.

I can think of a few other comics that have incorporated animation and so on, but they're mostly sprite comics (eg Bob and George).

EDIT:

<SupSuper> Sinister, Unholy, Person-Snatching, Undertaker-Pulverizing Enigma of Rage says (20:45):
but yeah if kid radd and mspa joined forces it'd be like GODDAMN
Paul.Power says (20:46):
hussie's next project: remaking Kid Radd?
<SupSuper> Sinister, Unholy, Person-Snatching, Undertaker-Pulverizing Enigma of Rage says (20:46):
now with EVEN MORE DRAMATIC BATTLE SCENES
actually kid radd fanart would be interesting
Paul.Power says (20:46):
it'll be out there
<SupSuper> Sinister, Unholy, Person-Snatching, Undertaker-Pulverizing Enigma of Rage says (20:46):
well ok i'm thinking mspa-style kid radd fanart
Paul.Power says (20:47):
hmmm
well, the spritesheets are there...
just going to post those last few lines of conversation in said thread, if you don't mind

[Phantos]

I am furiously crafting an angry image with text to anonymously submit my thoughts about how rude and inconsiderate both Andrew and Betel are acting in this thread.

Here's a preview:



Pending text: This community used to be different. We used to be able to just spout off nonsensical bullshit and complain about the color of a character's hair. Now the CREATOR is cracking down and his squad of ultra loyalist goons make sure that no one can talk about anything unless it's appropriate and inoffensive. What happened to my beautiful forum of democracy? What happened to those days when stupid bullshit ran free?

S!B I don't want ne-1 to know I said this lolololo

[Betelgeuse]

Phantos when will you finally learn to accept that those days are long dead


You're living in the past, man.

[VoltaicPhilosopher]

I am furiously crafting an angry image with text to anonymously submit my thoughts about how rude and inconsiderate both Andrew and Betel are acting in this thread.

Here's a preview:

show spoiler

hide spoiler

Pending text: This community used to be different. We used to be able to just spout off nonsensical bullshit and complain about the color of a character's hair. Now the CREATOR is cracking down and his squad of ultra loyalist goons make sure that no one can talk about anything unless it's appropriate and inoffensive. What happened to my beautiful forum of democracy? What happened to those days when stupid bullshit ran free?

S!B I don't want ne-1 to know I said this lolololo

It's one thing to post and kid around about something in the comic.

It's quite another to go on a long and exhaustive tirade against the comic basically calling it trash.

[Betelgeuse]

It's okay VP, Phantos and I have a long tradition of him not liking anything I ever do