Romantic Speculation Thread (Holiday Ship-To-Ship Combat)

[Lord Bob Bree]

- Terezi betrays Dave's trust, forcing Dave to break things off. Considering she already got John killed, it's hard to imagine her accomplishing this through any readily available means, but it's possible.

In support of that:

AG: Well if you want to know what I think, you should start changing your tune.
AG: Cause even though you got all these highfalutin morals and fancy reserv8tions, you know as well as me that a killer is a killer is a killer!
AG: There 8n't no ch8nging your ways for good, and one d8y you're going to flail that silly l8ttle cane of yours and not find n8thin to 8ump into, and fall f8ce first into the shit ag8in.
AG: And you're going to do something t8rri8le to some8ody and wish you could t8ke it 8ack 8ut you c8n't!!!!!!!!
AG: And then you'll work hard to win 8ack their trust, and you'll try and try and tr8, and you'll see how hard it is!
AG: You'll seeeeeeee!

Rather likely to be foreshadowing, although I guess there's a chance it'll end up happening to Vriska instead.

[Tesseract]

- Terezi betrays Dave's trust, forcing Dave to break things off. Considering she already got John killed, it's hard to imagine her accomplishing this through any readily available means, but it's possible.

In support of that:

AG: Well if you want to know what I think, you should start changing your tune.
AG: Cause even though you got all these highfalutin morals and fancy reserv8tions, you know as well as me that a killer is a killer is a killer!
AG: There 8n't no ch8nging your ways for good, and one d8y you're going to flail that silly l8ttle cane of yours and not find n8thin to 8ump into, and fall f8ce first into the shit ag8in.
AG: And you're going to do something t8rri8le to some8ody and wish you could t8ke it 8ack 8ut you c8n't!!!!!!!!
AG: And then you'll work hard to win 8ack their trust, and you'll try and try and tr8, and you'll see how hard it is!
AG: You'll seeeeeeee!

Rather likely to be foreshadowing, although I guess there's a chance it'll end up happening to Vriska instead.

I took that conversation as a joke

AG: And you're going to do something t8rri8le to some8ody and wish you could t8ke it 8ack 8ut you c8n't!!!!!!!!

Terezi kills John, and by extension kills Jade and forces Dave and Rose to spend months in an alternate timeline, and is forgiven in seconds.

[8oy Skylark]

- Terezi betrays Dave's trust, forcing Dave to break things off. Considering she already got John killed, it's hard to imagine her accomplishing this through any readily available means, but it's possible.

In support of that:

AG: Well if you want to know what I think, you should start changing your tune.
AG: Cause even though you got all these highfalutin morals and fancy reserv8tions, you know as well as me that a killer is a killer is a killer!
AG: There 8n't no ch8nging your ways for good, and one d8y you're going to flail that silly l8ttle cane of yours and not find n8thin to 8ump into, and fall f8ce first into the shit ag8in.
AG: And you're going to do something t8rri8le to some8ody and wish you could t8ke it 8ack 8ut you c8n't!!!!!!!!
AG: And then you'll work hard to win 8ack their trust, and you'll try and try and tr8, and you'll see how hard it is!
AG: You'll seeeeeeee!

Rather likely to be foreshadowing, although I guess there's a chance it'll end up happening to Vriska instead.

I took that conversation as a joke

AG: And you're going to do something t8rri8le to some8ody and wish you could t8ke it 8ack 8ut you c8n't!!!!!!!!

Terezi kills John, and by extension kills Jade and forces Dave and Rose to spend months in an alternate timeline, and is forgiven in seconds.

It's a potential red herring, of course. Everything is.

I agree that that reads more like foreshadowing than a joke. Now whether the foreshadowing is that Vriska will do that (and incur a dramatic break with John, and make the foreshadowing irony), or that Terezi will in fact screw things up pretty badly/betray Dave's trust, can be debated.

[Cleric of Zeal]

No one trusts Vriska already with the exception of certain humans. I think you are correct in thinking this is foreshadowing and I think you are right to assume Terezi will somehow betray Dave (whether it be killing or smooching someone).

[mutecebu]

I really want to see Davesprite get up in this action. I feel really sorry for him.

EB: you're the orange dave.
EB: hey no offense, but do you think i could talk to the real dave for a second?
TG: god dammit
TG: i am the real dave
TG: you know the one who saved your life
TG: im more real actually cause ive been through some heavy shit already hopping around on red hot gears and i-beams for like a year
TG: and grinding shit out for your ungrateful ass
TG: here look check out this code from the future not that you deserve it WIin189Q
TG: youre fucking welcome

I mean... yah. That would hurt.

Personally, I would want to put my foot down and say "No trollmance. Deal with it." I don't know if he would have the right, but if I were him I would probably feel like I would have the right to say so. Terezi didn't catch nearly as much flak as she deserved.

I'd love to see Vriska get redeemed, but I really haven't seen much reason to call her reformed. Maybe downgraded from murderer to permanently-maimer to cruel and torturous person, but she's still got a long way to go.

So what I'm trying to say is that there might be the possibility of the moirallegence occuring between John and Vriska.

This could work.

[Centric]

...in Karkat. BLUH. THIS IS STUPID. She doesn't like Karkat. Karkat has all of her dislike. All of it.

Actually, in that conversation with Tavros, Tavros says that Future Jade thinks Karkat is a pretty nice guy.

By the looks of the game update, this is probably because they've both had the experience of going to sleep without a dreamself, which I think is a universally nasty experience.

I didn't get much further than the end of Karkat's conversation with Nepeta because a sparkle gored my eye.

[scintillatingMoniker]

Karkat is a nice guy, just angry. Notice the way he talks to Equius in the new update. If he weren't a nice guy he wouldn't have apologised like that.

[jumpjet2k]

This post is about troll relationship serendipity, specifically moirallegiances. I intend to explain that moirallegiance pairings really put a strain on the idea that all the trolls will fill all of their quadrants.

I'm gonna start with the description of moirallegiance directly from the story, just so we're clear on it:

Trolls are a very angry and violent race. Some are more hot-tempered and dangerous than others, to the extent that if left to their own devices, they would present a serious threat to society, or even to themselves. Such trolls will have an instinctive pale attraction to a more even-tempered troll, who may become their MOIRAIL.

For each troll to fill this quadrant, we'll necessarily have 6 pairings. (I'm starting with just the trolls for now. The humans are factored in below.) Therefore, we need to have 6 trolls who could be a menace to troll society. Who are they?

1. Equius. He's already got an established moirallegiance.
2. Vriska. She's shown she can definitely be dangerous, so it won't be surprising if she ends up with a moirail.
3. Eridan - maybe. He had one before, but he's probably not such a risk to others any longer. I'll likely be discussing this in another post sometime later. In short, he doesn't really have any way to cause significant harm to society any longer, so he might not need someone to prevent that. I guess he could be a harm to himself, but there's not a whole lot of evidence for that.
4. Aradia - maybe. Seen to be dangerous in Make Her Pay, but then again, the rest of the time she's very level-headed. Also, she's gonna blow up sometime soon, so we don't know if she'll even be around to have any relationship. She's questionable, anyways.
5. Karkat - probably a stretch. He's definitely tempermental, but not "to the extent that left to [his] own devices, [he] would present a serious threat to society, or even to [himself]." I don't see Karkat ever really intentionally attacking any other trolls or becoming a menace. A threat to himself, though? It's possible, but there's not really any evidence for it. Again, this one's questionable.
6.

...It really breaks down here. I don't know who to put in that last slot, if anyone. Maybe Sollux (but he's never really that hot-tempered), maybe Terezi (same problem)... Maybe some other troll who goes crazy, but there's not been any evidence for that yet.

So we've got a problem, then. Even if only five of those work out and all of their respective moirails are other trolls, there're still two trolls left in the lurch.

Now we'll bring in the kids. First of all, we'll have to operate under the assumption that trolls can satisfy their need for a moirallegiance with a human on either side of the relationship - a cool-headed troll moirailling* a hot-headed human, or a cool-headed human moirailling a hot-headed troll. Let's explore our possibilities.

John's not dangerous, and Jade isn't, either, so we'll assume that neither of them can be on the "hot" side of a moirallegiance. This could change, of course, especially if something weird happens to Jade after entering the Medium, but there's no evidence for it. We're left with Rose and Dave. Hussie's mentioned that Rose could be moirail material, probably for Kanaya, so she's definitely in contention. Dave... that'd be a stretch, I think. I've never seen any evidence that Dave could be hot-tempered and a hazard to society. We'll put him in the "maybe" column, in any case.

So then we have, in some rough order of probability:
1. Equius Nepeta (canon)
2. Vriska another troll (probable)
3. Rose a troll (definitely a possibility)
3. Eridan another troll (maybe)
4. Aradia another troll (maybe)
5. Karkat another troll (probably a stretch)
6. Dave a troll (probably also a stretch)

Adding that up, we have exactly 12 trolls involved. Perfect. Except we've had to make some very significant assumptions to get there:
A. Human/troll moirallegiances are fine and will happen in canon. Maybe not so out there, as redrom as a whole seems a lot more probable for humans than blackrom.
B. All of these needs for moirallegiances are real - Karkat and Dave both DO need moirails to calm them down, for example.
C. None of the hot-headed trolls end up with a human as a moirail. For example, Vriska couldn't have John as a moirail, or anything of that sort.
D. Aradia's exploding in the future doesn't actually kill her, or at least doesn't prevent her from engaging in a relationship... however that would work.
E. Each "hot" character finds another "cool" character who fits their exact needs.
F. None of the other relationships the trolls have will create any kind of conflict with their required moirallegiance.

A pretty steep set of assumptions. If any of them prove to be incorrect, then not every troll ends up in a moirallegiance, in which case the base assumption of troll serendipity we've been relying upon won't work. I'm not saying that I've completely debunked that theory, because I haven't - there's still a way everything could work out. I'm also not saying that this is the only way things could work out - as I said, there could be some other random troll who goes "hot" and needs a "cool". However, the whole idea feels more than a little improbable at this point, in my opinion.

I've always felt like the troll serendipity theory sits on a rather wobbly footing, and I think I've provided some good evidence for that right here. And I haven't even started talking about any of the other quadrants yet! In any case, I'm eager to hear what others have to say on this matter.

As a side note, I hope my random bolding has been adequate for your tastes. I did my best.



*"Moirailling" has never been used in canon as the verb form of moirail, but neither has anything else. Speaking of which, I made a chart:

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[gimmethegepgun]

John's not dangerous, and Jade isn't, either, so we'll assume that neither of them can be on the "hot" side of a moirallegiance

According to Dave, Jade is crazier than Rose in the future, so she very well could be on the "hot" side. Though that does of course assume it's the same kind of crazy as Rose.
Also, in your chart, you put "love" and "hate" in the wrong rows.

[Cleric of Zeal]

An alternative proposed explanation of moirallegiance that still works within the canonical definition.

That's true, but Moirallegiance has some reciprocating benefits. For example, as I heard from another (in this thread even, maybe), Nepeta is the kind of person who would "get in a stranger's van". Equius prevents this through their relationship.

Maybe the other side of Moirallegiance is that you can stop a weak / unwise troll from being a danger to him/herself through said weakness. Tavros's lack of backbone has certainly qualified in putting him in serious danger.

What I was saying is that, if Tavros doesn't have a moirail now, getting one may help him fill other quadrants properly.

This might help you fill in your chart and relieve strain on Troll Serendipity.

C. None of the hot-headed trolls end up with a human as a moirail. For example, Vriska couldn't have John as a moirail, or anything of that sort.

What is your justification of this? There has been a lot of support for Vriska John in this thread.

[jumpjet2k]

An alternative proposed explanation of moirallegiance that still works within the canonical definition.

That's true, but Moirallegiance has some reciprocating benefits. For example, as I heard from another (in this thread even, maybe), Nepeta is the kind of person who would "get in a stranger's van". Equius prevents this through their relationship.

Maybe the other side of Moirallegiance is that you can stop a weak / unwise troll from being a danger to him/herself through said weakness. Tavros's lack of backbone has certainly qualified in putting him in serious danger.

What I was saying is that, if Tavros doesn't have a moirail now, getting one may help him fill other quadrants properly.

This might help you fill in your chart and relieve strain on Troll Serendipity.

Either way, the canonical definition requires that one troll be hot-headed and seek out a calmer troll as a moirail. I agree that there could be (and obviously are) other benefits to the relationship; however, by canon, one troll MUST be hot-headed.

C. None of the hot-headed trolls end up with a human as a moirail. For example, Vriska couldn't have John as a moirail, or anything of that sort.

What is your justification of this? There has been a lot of support for Vriska John in this thread.

What I meant with that statement is that, for example, if Vriska had John as a moirail, there wouldn't be enough "hot" partners for all the trolls to have one. I agree that Vriska John is a possibility, which only provides further evidence that the troll relationship serendipity theory might be flawed.

According to Dave, Jade is crazier than Rose in the future, so she very well could be on the "hot" side. Though that does of course assume it's the same kind of crazy as Rose.
Also, in your chart, you put "love" and "hate" in the wrong rows.

...

friiiiiiiiig. Lemme go fix that...
Edit: Better now.

[BlastYoBoots]

Agh, I suddenly have too many irons in the fire to take the time to update Dave or respond to jumpjet2k's excellent post. That'll have to wait till late, late tomorrow, if I can. (Perfect use of bolding, by the way, really drew attention to the main points.)

Aradia, however, has left me having to consider an unexpected caveat in the Troll Serendipity rule:

That only all trolls who live will have all their quadrants filled.


I'm starting to hope for some more well defined qualifications/caveats to that Troll Serendipity rule, because if jumpjet is right AND Serendipity holds true as I wrote it we'd have Andrew killing trolls to make sure quadrants are filled evenly. That doesn't make much sense, obviously. I'll have time to think about this little clusterfuck tomorrow.

[Metaflare]

...Wasn't Kanaya Vriska's morail?

[8oy Skylark]

Your chart's verb is switched around for Kismesis & Matespritship.

And it seems to me that the conciliatory relationships are less likely to all be filled if any quadrants are left unfulfilled. Their purpose is largely based on a case-by-case basis, and not everyone needs them.

The conciliatory quadrants seem to function more as tools for simplification. It keeps Kismeses from becoming unfaithful to each other (in the case of Auspices), and keeps trolls from destroying their society, other trolls en masse, or themselves (Moirallegiance).

Moirallegiance is something I wouldn't stretch. Karkat has yet to show himself to not be level-headed. He's irate but it never gets in the way of his decisions; it's part of why he makes a good leader. Even in Aterniabound, he's just seen what he considers the most disturbing thing he's ever seen, the only reaction he has is to stop others from experiencing the things he's just had happen to him. He avoids anything he can't handle, and he's gained the respect of his peers. To suggest he's dangerous to himself or others is suggesting that Rose stops on her path to destruction; there is no evidence to support it yet.

A similar issue witH Dave; we've seen him after he's seen the end, and gone through the timeline three times. He does not seem any more or less insane, and maintains his cool head. There is no indications that he'll ever be a danger to others or himself.

He does mention that Jade's completely lost it, however; he even says that she's worse than Rose. She and Rose both seem to be candidates for moirallegiance.

[BlastYoBoots]

...Wasn't Kanaya Vriska's morail?

Kanaya didn't want to be Vriska's moirail because she was too busy being Hearts Boxcars she was secretly holding out for matespritship. Then Vriska smooched Tavros using the dress she made for her and she stopped speaking to Vriska at all.

If Kanaya secured a flushed relationship with someone else, she might be able to fulfill a proper Moirallegiance with Vriska; just like Eridan might fulfill a nicer, two-sides Moirallegiance with Feferi if he finds some other outlet for his flushed desires.

Either of these may turn into flushed relationships instead of Moirallegiances, though. Depending. Need sleep can't go in depth bluh.

[jumpjet2k]

If Kanaya secured a flushed relationship with someone else, she might be able to fulfill a proper Moirallegiance with Vriska; just like Eridan might fulfill a nicer, two-sides Moirallegiance with Feferi if he finds some other outlet for his flushed desires.

That's it! Kanaya Eridan! It's perfect! It solves all our problems.

Yet I can't help but feel like there's something I'm forgetting...

[gimmethegepgun]

Either way, the canonical definition requires that one troll be hot-headed and seek out a calmer troll as a moirail. I agree that there could be (and obviously are) other benefits to the relationship; however, by canon, one troll MUST be hot-headed.

Not necessarily, Tavros might have a moirail with someone that's NOT "hot", which would benefit him by making him less of a wuss. Kanaya seemed to have filled this role for a while, what with Rufio, and Terezi picked up on it somewhat in Alterniabound. Not sure what the other side of the relationship would gain (maybe some of his pathetically bad problems would even them out in whatever they're doing? Like Terezi with Dave. Somehow.)

Aradia, however, has left me having to consider an unexpected caveat in the Troll Serendipity rule:

That only all trolls who live will have all their quadrants filled.


I'm starting to hope for some more well defined qualifications/caveats to that Troll Serendipity rule, because if jumpjet is right AND Serendipity holds true as I wrote it we'd have Andrew killing trolls to make sure quadrants are filled evenly. That doesn't make much sense, obviously. I'll have time to think about this little clusterfuck tomorrow.

Still most probable that Aradia is just a Disney *ahem* "Death", and she will come back by some means. Through something crazy, maybe, or maybe she blew up because she was brought back to life. Anyway, killing off main characters is generally a bad idea, even if it is the Scrappy fatalist that pretty much all the fans hate. Especially when it would rule out The Kiss (Redux).

Yes, I namedropped 2 tropes. Sue me.

[8oy Skylark]

I'm going to make a chart for relationship simplifications.

[orderboundChaotic]

Since when does everyone hate Aradia? You might call that a minor case of opinion myopia.

[jumpjet2k]

Either way, the canonical definition requires that one troll be hot-headed and seek out a calmer troll as a moirail. I agree that there could be (and obviously are) other benefits to the relationship; however, by canon, one troll MUST be hot-headed.

Not necessarily, Tavros might have a moirail with someone that's NOT "hot", which would benefit him by making him less of a wuss. Kanaya seemed to have filled this role for a while, what with Rufio, and Terezi picked up on it somewhat in Alterniabound. Not sure what the other side of the relationship would gain (maybe some of his pathetically bad problems would even them out in whatever they're doing? Like Terezi with Dave. Somehow.)

Moirallegiance doesn't work that way, though! Read the (canon) definition again. Trolls that "are more hot-tempered and dangerous than others...have an instinctive pale attraction to a more even-tempered troll, who may become their MOIRAIL." Without a hot-headed troll, it isn't a moirallegiance - it's just friendship, helpfulness, meddling, whatever else you might call it. Kanaya is Tavros's friend, and she definitely supports him, and it definitely benefits him - no doubt about that. But it wouldn't fulfill his pale quadrant unless he played some part in calming her destructive impulses, which she... doesn't have, as far as we can tell.

[gimmethegepgun]

Either way, the canonical definition requires that one troll be hot-headed and seek out a calmer troll as a moirail. I agree that there could be (and obviously are) other benefits to the relationship; however, by canon, one troll MUST be hot-headed.

Not necessarily, Tavros might have a moirail with someone that's NOT "hot", which would benefit him by making him less of a wuss. Kanaya seemed to have filled this role for a while, what with Rufio, and Terezi picked up on it somewhat in Alterniabound. Not sure what the other side of the relationship would gain (maybe some of his pathetically bad problems would even them out in whatever they're doing? Like Terezi with Dave. Somehow.)

Moirallegiance doesn't work that way, though! Read the (canon) definition again. Trolls that "are more hot-tempered and dangerous than others...have an instinctive pale attraction to a more even-tempered troll, who may become their MOIRAIL." Without a hot-headed troll, it isn't a moirallegiance - it's just friendship, helpfulness, meddling, whatever else you might call it. Kanaya is Tavros's friend, and she definitely supports him, and it definitely benefits him - no doubt about that. But it wouldn't fulfill his pale quadrant unless he played some part in calming her destructive impulses, which she... doesn't have, as far as we can tell.

Destructively over-willing to help, regardless of the cost? You know, like cutting off a friend's legs for his own good? Or perhaps she WAS dangerous in the past, and only by releasing pent up feelings (mainly about Vriska) by helping Tavros could she not go and murder trolls in their (nocturnal) sleep. You can stretch anything to meet any demands. Just depends on how big of a wedgie you wanna give it.

[8oy Skylark]

It's less about hot-headed and more about dangerous trolls. Danger can come in many forms.

On another note : Simple chart for planning Relationships, drawn below.

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Central troll, and their options in each quadrant.

I didn't draw the symbol for Auspisticeship because a troll could fill in any of the three positions. They don't necessarily have to be the auspice.

You can expand it to show other options for each quadrant.

[orderboundChaotic]

Wait a second. Why is everyone assuming a troll has to fill all four quadrants? They only need a matesprit and kismesis for reproduction. The other two are just keep society from destroying itself. Only the dangerous ones need it.

Am I bolding this right?

Edit: Nice chart.

[gimmethegepgun]

Wait a second. Why is everyone assuming a troll has to fill all four quadrants? They only need a matesprit and kismesis for reproduction. The other two are just keep society from destroying itself. Only the dangerous ones need it.

Am I bolding this right?

Edit: Nice chart.

Because it pretty much explicitly says so (near the bottom).

[8oy Skylark]

Wait a second. Why is everyone assuming a troll has to fill all four quadrants? They only need a matesprit and kismesis for reproduction. The other two are just keep society from destroying itself. Only the dangerous ones need it.

Am I bolding this right?

Edit: Nice chart.

I figure a good visual way to keep track of relationship possibilities is a good idea. It's a way to condense the info in BYB's analyzations, as well as make it quicker to read for the other quadrants.