NEPETAQUEST 2011: Incredibly serious business.

[ocpmovie]

Woops. Should be fixed now! I wasn't sure if this was still the place for the edits, so I just thought I'd suggest it, especially since if I was looking for them I don't know where else I'd look.

You can see my artwork and edits in the OCPMovie Thread over in the Art Forum.

[I do consider these art rather than edits, as so much of the material is original.]



Not sure how to launch that JAR file on my mac 10.5?

I have a Jar Launcher, but the file doesn't work at all. I get an error message informing me that there may be an error message. What I downloaded is 3.6 MB.

[Snuffleheim]

All @Geek:
Wish I could help you in that area, but my specialty is writing.

As for the .jar file, it works exactly as you described on this Mac 10.6, except for that I can't get back into field mode.

About the music, I think it is a good battle theme. Just need to nudge the cuteness level up a single notch and it'd be perfect. Well, it needs to be finished, too, obviously, but still. Maybe ZW could run with it.

[GEMPadre036]

The file seems to be working fine for me (Windows user), except I have the same problem as Snuff.
Music is good, but that "Deedoodoo Deedoodoo" is kinda annoying imo. Maybe just tweak it a bit.

[orderboundChaotic]

Z-W, both of these songs are very nice. The first one makes me think of Equius' hive with some of his machines buzzing/banging. The second one makes me think of Nepeta taking a nap and having a sweet dream.

Geekthras, yours makes me think of fighting underground, like in a tomb.

[Snuffleheim]

Also, we should totally use the stuff in the test .jar thing. Uh, the non-horn one obviously.

I know you said you couldn't speak for the field mode, Geek, but I just wanted to comment that it is the exact same thing as the previous test .jar.

Also I want to ask what people thought of my item category thing on the last page.

[ocpmovie]

When can people get started on artificating, anyway? Is there any reason not to start doing backgrounds and stuff now? I mean, I can see holding off on spriting and stuff, but... we're gonna need a lot of art, guys!

Don't feel bad about using temp graphics until the programming is solid. That's probably the best way around it, as you'll still be able to make changes. There are plenty of artists here so the graphics will come together once everything else has come together.

[Geekthras]

Yeah, I don't really have the capability of finishing songs with my software, like I said, and this was just a musical whim that I wanted to run by you before I tried to make it into a full fledged song. Same with the first thing. I still haven't had the chance to write anything with access to a piano so it's really slow going.

As for the item thing, that sounds fine to me, though I'm not sure we'll need overworld items, and doable to program. I mean, if we can manage to get the battle and field modules up and going, I feel like we can tackle anything :P

If you do want to use the non-horn music in the flash, then I will point the other musicians to http://b.armory.com/~geekthras/garbage/hamstack/ss where the files for that one are located. I had written it as a Sollux/Nepeta piece (hence the name) but since I don't think there are *any* plans to involve Sollux, that's pretty mutable. I keep trying to go to sleep, but I just can't. It's kind of infuriating. Maybe I'll mess around with music some more, because I'm obviously too brain-addled to properly link things, let alone code.

[orderboundChaotic]

Battle and party items are obviously required. So, no arguments from me.
Temporary weapon upgrades sounds interesting, but if battle items can accomplish the same thing there does not seem to be a point. It could be useful if we can ensure they are different enough. Such as, twu lasts so many turns for you to use it against your enemies while a battle item would be a one-shot chance.
As for world items, I am not really sure what you mean.

Edit: On the subject of status effects, how about On-fire or Freezing?

[GEMPadre036]

The setup looks OK, but I still like the idea for Karkat's ability, soI think status effects shouldn't just be item only.

[HarMegidon]

I don't even like Nepeta. Why does she get a game based on an offhand remark by Andrew on his formspring? Shouldn't we get Vriska: The Fattening or NAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKDOOF: THE SHOOSH OF THE PAPS?

[orderboundChaotic]

I don't even like Nepeta. Why does she get a game based on an offhand remark by Andrew on his formspring? Shouldn't we get Vriska: The Fattening or NAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKNAKDOOF: THE SHOOSH OF THE PAPS?

That was probably a joke, but think of it this way, if Nepetaquest 2011 is successfully made, it could lead to more Homestuck fangames, like Kanaystlevania or Metal Gear Sollux. If we make this happen, who knows what could be next.

[Frost]

Replies replies replies.

@Snuff:
Some kind of "generic equippable" item seems like an interesting idea. Having these items be unique would allow us to reward exploration and seeking out battles. I'd go the route of having them apply only to Nepeta; we need to break up the monotony of her character as much as possible. I'm thinking of something along the lines of Kingdom Hearts' keychains.

To stop them from giving Geekthras a massive programmer's headache, I'd have these equippables do only two things: Increase one or many of Nepeta's statistics, and/or add a single status effect to Nepeta's basic attack with N% probability. "Forest Ash", for instance, might increase Nepeta's agility by 4 and add a 15% chance of inflicting Blind, while "Pirate's Brew" would just add a 30% chance of inflicting Confusion.

@ocpmovie:
I'll find some way to subtly link your images into the OP, since we owe so much to them; I think they were what prompted my original realisation that "we could actually make a game out of this". As for graphics, we need to settle on a pixel size before anything else, and to choose a pixel size we need somebody to remake the trolls' battle templates in low-res. Look at posts #30 and #32.

Second priority for graphics is deciding on the nature of the battle backgrounds. They can be either "painted" or "sprited"; the former is probably faster and will appeal to more artists, but it might end up looking like shit. I've tried my hand at a very rough (very rough) painted-background mockup here, for Karkat's Lawnring. Any thoughts on whether using sprites and paint in the same image works?

For the .jar, you might be able to override that error message; it's probably just a warning. If anybody for some reason wants to play with the larval form of the Field engine, press F on the opening screen, then use WASD to walk around and Q to return.

@musicians in general:
You guys are building on what you have, right? I mean, we have a couple of track samples that we all agree would work very well, and I'm looking forward to having something objectively impressive to link in the OP, heh.

@Geekthras:
Since you might have missed it the first time, I thought I'd better repeat it: If it would ease your programming burden a little, it might be sensible to provide us with a list of battle design questions that you need to have finalised ASAP. In fact, I almost want to insist on it; when it comes to designing the battles, we're sort of lacking focus.

@Z-W:
Midi files sound wildly inconsistent depending on the computer playing them. Convert them to fancy mp3 or ogg or wav or something if at all possible. The game itself already has .ogg support, and VLC media player can transcode anything, so you don't need to worry about the game being able to play it.

It was inevitable that I'd say something like this, but: Hive Covered In Cute sounds like it could be a Terezi's Forest theme, with a little tweaking.

[Snuffleheim]

On items:
@oC: Well, yeah, that was the original idea. You apply the item, it grants a bonus/ability to your regular attack for a certain amount of time, then wears off. You are right in that we need to make those effects different enough to matter.
RE Frost's response: I think you have a point about applying it only to Nepeta, although it would have been fun to have it work with the other people too. On the other hand, going with what I was proposing and letting everyone in on it could have led to massive Fridge Logic. (Poison on Dice? Wha...????????) However, I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting with the "keychain" thing. Does that imply permanence? Because part of the reason I went for temporary stuff is that we're stuck with generic steel claw-gloves to end with, because that's what she starts out with in Hivebent. Although it might be nice to have some sort of equippable.

On Battle:
Yes, I totally agree with Frost. Give us stuff to decide/think about! XD

On music:
Huh. Yeah, I think that would work for Terezi's forest.

[shadowedPhoenix]

...When can people get started on artificating, anyway? Is there any reason not to start doing backgrounds and stuff now? I mean, I can see holding off on spriting and stuff, but... we're gonna need a lot of art, guys!

Big question re: backgrounds is what size we're talking, and where the UI is going to sit on screen: going to need a size and position for that before finished backgrounds can be done. Also, the whole 'hi-res versus lo-res graphics' deal is going to affect it (when it comes down to it, I think hi-res is better looking, but lo-res is more practical...). Can try and put together a couple of test ones, though, with enough space left for possible UI elements? Is there any restriction on the number of colours these things are going to use?

Also going to try and pull together a starter list of what sprites're going to/might be be needed? At least, from this one artist's PoV?

Edit: Okay, Frost ninja'd a couple of my points. Heh. And @ Snuffle: keychains, in this context, would refer to temporary swappable upgrades to weapons. So she's always got her basic claw gloves, but they can be added to with different bonuses at different times.

[Frost]

Surely temporary attack effects can come from normal items? I'm sure we can wrangle a positive status effect that conveys a poison attack or something.

Thinking about it, it doesn't make too much sense to have "rub-on poison" and so on be permanent effects. Maybe we should change the equippables to, I don't know, a necklace or something? Wristbands? I'm reluctant to say "claws" because that means we'd have to resprite them, but I am kind of attached to having some way to upgrade Nepeta.

Big question re: backgrounds is what size we're talking

If we go with painted backgrounds, that's not an issue. Create them to be as big as possible, then scale or crop them as necessary. But yeah, we need to decide on the battle layout (UI, players, enemies) ASAP. If anybody wants to sketch a mockup for a two-person party, each with some display that conveys their health and status, with room for a four-option selection box and plenty of space for enemies, that would be welcome. Remember that large backdrops, as in Paper Mario, look better than filling 90% of the image with flat ground.

Also going to try and pull together a starter list of what sprites're going to/might be be needed? At least, from this one artist's PoV?

Check the OP. I don't think I missed anything.

[Snuffleheim]

On items:
Agreed. The main hurdle is trolls' distaste for fashion. I can't really see Nepeta going for a necklace or wristband. As for rub-on poison and such, do you still think that's a good idea for temporary effects? I know i do. I can't get the image of Nepeta's claws protruding from the Pale boss' middle section dripping in acid out of my head.

On Sprites:
Ninja'd

On And Now for Something Completely Different:
SNOW=AWESOME. That's all there really is to say on the matter.

[Frost]

As for rub-on poison and such, do you still think that's a good idea for temporary effects?

Yeah. I'm seeing items being a very large factor in combat, since they're universal; we can't rely too heavily on special abilities, since they change every level and each troll only gets one of them. It also adds a bit of challenge and interest; do you fight that unavoidable enemy if it means you can get those three powerful items? Do you avoid battles, knowing that most battles drop useful combat items?

[shadowedPhoenix]

Big question re: backgrounds is what size we're talking

If we go with painted backgrounds, that's not an issue. Create them to be as big as possible, then scale or crop them as necessary. But yeah, we need to decide on the battle layout (UI, players, enemies) ASAP. If anybody wants to sketch a mockup for a two-person party, each with some display that conveys their health and status, with room for a four-option selection box and plenty of space for enemies, that would be welcome. Remember that large backdrops, as in Paper Mario, look better than filling 90% of the image with flat ground.

Also going to try and pull together a starter list of what sprites're going to/might be be needed? At least, from this one artist's PoV?

Check the OP. I don't think I missed anything.

Sweet - thanks. I'm messing with basic layouts now.

[Snuffleheim]

@Frost: Exactly! But you also have to be careful with your supply of them. Don't want to run out before the boss fight! But are you suggesting that we can use the temporary effects with all party members? I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to figure out how they'd work. Also effects. I think the things you were going with earlier for the keychain idea worked pretty well, although with higher or guaranteed chances of side effects working because they're temporary.

Speaking of supplies, something else just occurred to me: are we doing anything like stores? I can imagine Equius having built a vending bot for his hive, but I'm not sure what to do outside of that.

As for the battle mode, since we have so few choices for what to do in battle, wouldn't it work better for them to be linked to keys instead of stuck in a menu?

[Frost]

If we're going to rely heavily on items, especially for healing, I think we should probably be bringing in shops, yeah. If the player doesn't have some kind of reliable source of healing potions and so on, the game could very easily become unwinnable.

I don't suppose the cats could be shopkeepers? We can't bring in new trolls without breaking the whole "nobody else exists" thing, but random inanimate objects like cupboards and vending machines wouldn't be noticeable enough. Hmm. We could always bring in "Shopbeasts" and explain it away as "Alternia sure is weird!".

And to head off the next obvious question: there are no inns. Talking to a cat heals you completely because they're so fucking adorable.

As for the battle mode, since we have so few choices for what to do in battle, wouldn't it work better for them to be linked to keys instead of stuck in a menu?

Probably not. Remember that it's not just picking an action; the player also needs to do things like select items and choose an enemy to attack. Sticking to one "style" of input is always far neater conceptually, and since Final Fantasy (and similar games) were kind of a formative experience for a lot of people, sticking to the FF style means that our players will instinctively know how to interact with the game.

[shadowedPhoenix]

Shop drones? Supply drones? Though 'shopbeasts' is making me laugh.

Very first draft layouts, just playing with basic Paper Mario and Final Fantasy ideas. Just showing lo-res versions, because there's a lot more that can be done with the hi-res style.

show spoiler

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The squares are 16/16px, to give scale. Going with lo-res, there's no way that a lot of the screen's not going to be taken with the UI bits, if only to keep things legible.

[Snuffleheim]

I think for the shops, we should keep things as close to what would be "normal" on Alternia as possible. How do troll kids get all their stuff? They can't make it all themselves.

Adorableness=Heal is a go.

I personally prefer a more active style, but that's just my preference.

[ocpmovie]

The quickest way to start creating some realistic, well-shaded animated character sprites [and I will emphasize START- this is a starting point] is to use simple CGI- fire up Poser [or the free DAZ Studio, which I never use].

I will probably do this and give you guys a few Nepeta templates as least for starters.

You bring in Victoria 4 or Michael 4, dress them in appropriate clothes that you've bought or downloaded, and start with those. At the very least it gives you a good walk cycle and good static poses at any angle. More and more of the clothes being created actually have the appropriate morphs to make the characters look younger and not like a generic comic book model - this wasn't always the case.

I did this all the time on my Doctor Who project. The main thing is to draw the face and head yourself, ignoring the generic CGI heads except as maybe lighting reference.


The quickest way to allow Kanayastlevania to happen is to make sure Kanaya is actually in NepetaQuest enough to ensure that she gets fully sprited [in a barely-canon outfit designed by Aborted Slunk]. From that point on, the NepetaQuest trolls can be used for Kanayastlevania concepts as well.

For the .jar, you might be able to override that error message; it's probably just a warning.

No, it just says it won't launch. And to check the Console for possible error messages, which I don't know how to do.

[Frost]

I'm loving the third UI style, shadowedPhoenix. Nice and compact, and we can always recycle the space taken up by the healthbars if we absolutely need to. I'm imagining status effects being represented by a single small icon to the right of that player's healthbar, which cycles through several frames if the player has multiple status effects.

I prefer the player and enemy arrangements used in the second mockup; we have too much vertical space to justify having them all in a line. Speaking of space, having scaled up the third image, I think we could get away with a slightly smaller font; it's not like we'll be rendering onto a Game Boy screen or something, heh.

ocpmovie, I hate to be so absolute, but I really want to avoid CGI. It'll never interact well with low-resolution (or even what we've called "high-resolution") pixel art; it just can't convey the sort of detail we need, so we'd be forced to go for a full resprite. Pixel art isn't about "perfect accuracy and consistency" so much as it's about "cheating the eye into thinking that those ten pixels represent a belt buckle".

Also Poser models often have uncanny valley coming out of their ears, and to avoid a stylistic clash, creating one sprite using Poser would mean we'd need to do the same for all of them.

[and I will emphasize START- this is a starting point]

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting point". If you mean the CGI renders would act as a base over which to create entirely new sprites, I don't see why not, as long as you can switch up the models' proportions to fit well with the templates we'll be using.

[crash826]

About equipment and plot.

show spoiler

hide spoiler

I had an idea that could be used to give things a little more urgency and show that the Fountain of Cute isn't just a nice little goal for Nepeta.

Paradox space foretold that SGRUB would appear, and it has always been right. When it didn't happen, despite its inevitability, pspace didn't know how to handle it, and the fabric of time and space began to fray and split. Objects from the other timeline (Homes Smell Ya Later, Nepeta's crystalline claws, a wild consort, Brainfork, etc.) begin materializing as the canon timeline begins to impose itself on this one. As well, the world begins to scratch out of existence. At first it's little things, and it's mentioned offhandedly by people you converse with. It then gets more and more damaged, with entire continents vanishing off the map, and it culminates as the universe outside the Temple is turned into nothing but a void, with the land outside the Temple of Cute vanishing during the Aradia fight and disappearing completely as Team Cats gets inside.

Nepeta realizes that there are only two options here: live for the rest of her life with six other people in the middle of a giant teapot in the middle of a void of utter nothing, or do the same thing but she also finds the Fountain of Cute. I think this is a pretty good motivation for her activation of the Fountain: after all, what does it matter?

Also, final boss should be something like "Catscratch", a 1st Guardian Nepeta who was created by automatic defense systems and cloning Nepeta with the MEOW code to protect the fountain.

If this is stupid someone tell me.