IDE/Theory Thread 18: John's fraymotif is a pie banjo. Pass it on.

[paranoidNegotiator]

ide/theory: john egbert is partpickles.

I think I remember someone suggesting John's name be Pickle way back at the beginning of Homestuck.

[NeoPhantom]

Pickle Snotface...

[laserdogbad]

jade becomes god tier turning into a bec jade.

jack noir or whatever his name his now kills everyone but jade
jade and jack win the game
new universe with dogs that have tentacles and wings

[He Who Slumbers]

Trolls don't actually have breasts. The Marquise just had odd taste in where she kept grenades.

[WillSpark]

Trolls don't actually have breasts. The Marquise just had odd taste in where she kept grenades.

Keeping grenades on your chest under your clothes is odd?

[BlastYoBoots]

Trolls don't actually have breasts. The Marquise just had odd taste in where she kept grenades.

And all the other female actors in Karkat's movie posters, as well?


...this is now headcanon.

[nupanick]

IDE/theory: The troll reproductive system was specifically engineered to speed up evolution. First, the complexity of troll romance is such that they have no end of things to kill each other over. This is compounded by the large number of things punishable by death, including failure to fill both filial pails when the imperial drone comes knocking. Second, incestual genetics tend to lead to mutations, right? The "incestual slurry" vital to troll breeding is likely the cause for the large number of mutations, such as the wide range of pigments, various psychic abilities, abnormal eyes, etc. And according to troll Charles Darwin, what do you get when you combine a high mortality rate with a high mutation rate? Evolution.

Additional points:

show spoiler

hide spoiler

The notion that someone would design a system this way is also fitting with evidence suggesting that the founders of troll civilization were familiar with sburb (encouraging wrigglers to design their own houses).

Also troll bioengineers can breed grubs to be videogames, computers, or trading card games, so it's plausible that the mother grub was deliberately bred to be used in troll reproduction.

[transistorTransistor]

IDE/theory: The troll reproductive system was specifically engineered to speed up evolution. First, the complexity of troll romance is such that they have no end of things to kill each other over. This is compounded by the large number of things punishable by death, including failure to fill both filial pails when the imperial drone comes knocking.

High mortality from minor disadvantageous traits does not help evolution except by pushing species out of the unstable area toward some more tolerant range (ex: species could survive in a certain climate but the whole area with such climate is full of hazards and predators -- instead of optimizing toward living there and fighting hazards, local population may become extinct except for the mutated group that can simply survive in a different climate, so it just moves to a safer area).

Second, incestual genetics tend to lead to mutations, right?

Not at all. Incest does not change the rate of mutation, it makes easier for the same otherwise rare gene combination to appear in both parents, so offspring only has it and not the alternatives. If there is something bad and recessive, it will show up often even if it is very disadvantageous, and combination of such things leads to large number of freak-like individuals. Mutations may be rare but the results will stay present in population even if they cause nothing but disadvantage. High rate of mutation may look superficially the same, but fundamentally this is the opposite -- mutations increase diversity by producing new traits not present before (that may be selected for or against), incest decreases it by making the same traits show up again and again (and due to lack of alternatives it happens regardless of their effect on survival, attractiveness or fertility, except for the extremes).

The "incestual slurry" vital to troll breeding is likely the cause for the large number of mutations, such as the wide range of pigments, various psychic abilities, abnormal eyes, etc. And according to troll Charles Darwin, what do you get when you combine a high mortality rate with a high mutation rate? Evolution.

"Incestuous slurry" seems to be less about incest and more about trying all combinations of "parents" as long as parents happened to be in a relationship (what means, they were able to survive to adult age, inspire love in some and hatred in someone else -- does not matter in whom), so natural selection still works. Since Mother Grub physiology is unknown, it's even possible that some mechanism prevents obviously wrong combinations -- such as too similar parents like in regular incest, or repeating known-bad combinations.

Additional points:

show spoiler

hide spoiler

The notion that someone would design a system this way is also fitting with evidence suggesting that the founders of troll civilization were familiar with sburb (encouraging wrigglers to design their own houses).

Also troll bioengineers can breed grubs to be videogames, computers, or trading card games, so it's plausible that the mother grub was deliberately bred to be used in troll reproduction.

Very likely so. However it's also possible that trolls' inclination toward violence, architecture and games influenced design of Sgrub.

[simon.clarkstone]

For a while I have known about Aradia being analogous to Little Red Riding-hood, and BN analogous to the Big Bad Wolf. I only just realised that Araida has just gone "into" BN, so if following the story she will meet her Ancestor, and both will be freed by Kanaya (a topiarist with a chainsaw is the closest we can get to a woodcutter with an axe in this story). The analogy doesn't hold very well though, as they aren't "trapped" as such.

[nupanick]

okay so taking the corrections on the meaning of "incestual slurry" and mutations vs repressed genes into account, I still maintain that the breeding system is set up to maximize genetic variety of each individual generation and then thin the herd through constant competition. This is technically more adaptation than evolution, but I think the point still stands that the whole system looks like it was engineered deliberately.

[Patrick]

About the outfit, it is a Felt outfit so the fact that they're similar is natural.

What I mean is, when Dave was drawn like that (can't remember exactly; the image I supplied was from a wallpaper thread) it may have been to foreshadow the revelation. Assuming Dave actually is connected to DS in some way.

So at the least, you may have found the source for Doc Scratch.

Yeah, I figured that the connection between the DSs must be by cloning (like Harley & Becquerel) or some other thing we don't know yet...

But really, am I really the first person to have noticed a similarity between those two?

OH ANOTHER THING

This is technically more adaptation than evolution, but I think the point still stands that the whole system looks like it was engineered deliberately.

Engineered, perhaps, by the set of players that created the Trolls' universe?

[lexavian]

IDE/theory: The troll reproductive system was specifically engineered to speed up evolution. First, the complexity of troll romance is such that they have no end of things to kill each other over. This is compounded by the large number of things punishable by death, including failure to fill both filial pails when the imperial drone comes knocking.

High mortality from minor disadvantageous traits does not help evolution except by pushing species out of the unstable area toward some more tolerant range (ex: species could survive in a certain climate but the whole area with such climate is full of hazards and predators -- instead of optimizing toward living there and fighting hazards, local population may become extinct except for the mutated group that can simply survive in a different climate, so it just moves to a safer area).

Second, incestual genetics tend to lead to mutations, right?

Not at all. Incest does not change the rate of mutation, it makes easier for the same otherwise rare gene combination to appear in both parents, so offspring only has it and not the alternatives. If there is something bad and recessive, it will show up often even if it is very disadvantageous, and combination of such things leads to large number of freak-like individuals. Mutations may be rare but the results will stay present in population even if they cause nothing but disadvantage. High rate of mutation may look superficially the same, but fundamentally this is the opposite -- mutations increase diversity by producing new traits not present before (that may be selected for or against), incest decreases it by making the same traits show up again and again (and due to lack of alternatives it happens regardless of their effect on survival, attractiveness or fertility, except for the extremes).

The "incestual slurry" vital to troll breeding is likely the cause for the large number of mutations, such as the wide range of pigments, various psychic abilities, abnormal eyes, etc. And according to troll Charles Darwin, what do you get when you combine a high mortality rate with a high mutation rate? Evolution.

"Incestuous slurry" seems to be less about incest and more about trying all combinations of "parents" as long as parents happened to be in a relationship (what means, they were able to survive to adult age, inspire love in some and hatred in someone else -- does not matter in whom), so natural selection still works. Since Mother Grub physiology is unknown, it's even possible that some mechanism prevents obviously wrong combinations -- such as too similar parents like in regular incest, or repeating known-bad combinations.

Additional points:

show spoiler

hide spoiler

The notion that someone would design a system this way is also fitting with evidence suggesting that the founders of troll civilization were familiar with sburb (encouraging wrigglers to design their own houses).

Also troll bioengineers can breed grubs to be videogames, computers, or trading card games, so it's plausible that the mother grub was deliberately bred to be used in troll reproduction.

Very likely so. However it's also possible that trolls' inclination toward violence, architecture and games influenced design of Sgrub.

Incestual relations DOES increase the rate of mutation slightly.
And death weeds out all trolls unfit to be galactic warriors. If Gamzee can't survive alternia, how would he survive galactic warfare that most trolls grow into? Survival of the fittest.
And the incestuos slurry comment was a followup to the other incest point, so I've already addressed that.

Basically, nuna's facts are right.

For a while I have known about Aradia being analogous to Little Red Riding-hood, and BN analogous to the Big Bad Wolf. I only just realised that Araida has just gone "into" BN, so if following the story she will meet her Ancestor, and both will be freed by Kanaya (a topiarist with a chainsaw is the closest we can get to a woodcutter with an axe in this story). The analogy doesn't hold very well though, as they aren't "trapped" as such.

If you're basing your guess on kanaya solely on her weapons, than it's nearly just as likely to be karkat since karkat's is also a tool used in outdoor work, cutting down a form of plants to get raw materials.

[HarMegidon]

In Kanayas intro it said she was a lumberjack.

[transistorTransistor]

Incestual relations DOES increase the rate of mutation slightly.

Slightly, as at the extent that some traits persistently appearing in such population may make it more likely for individual to expose themselves to poisons, radiation, diseases, etc. or be affected by them without being selected toward something more stable? That's a drop in a... bucket. Otherwise, rate of mutations would be constant as it usually is. Results of mutations will be more visible because of the lack of diversity in population -- once something is there, even it is recessive and usually selected against, it is likely to be in both parents in later generations.

It just happens that most mutations are disadvantageous, and most results of inbreeding are disadvantageous, but those are not the same. For example, European royalty was not constantly producing mutations that resulted in hemophilia -- they just had the same recessive gene showing up again and again in both parents of male children, thus causing the disease. The same gene is likely still in the population now, but combination with everything else prevents it from manifesting itself often. However it's there and it may even happen to be advantageous down the line -- imagine another mutation that provides effective but fundamentally different mechanism of healing wounds that does not involve blood clotting and is inhibited by it. It would be useless otherwise and may remain present silently over generations, but once combined with hemophilia, you have real-life Wolverine[*].

And death weeds out all trolls unfit to be galactic warriors. If Gamzee can't survive alternia, how would he survive galactic warfare that most trolls grow into? Survival of the fittest.

Modern war, especially on the scale of a galaxy, is very unlikely to select for anything, as survival is low not because of high discrimination for any kinds of traits but because of high probability of random death. Having a missile hit your or neighbor's spaceship is mostly random, and at best marginally affected by the intelligence of the pilot/crew/captain, but if modern science fiction is to be believed, one such event affects hundreds or thousands of people regardless of their individual variations. If anything, war selects against advantageous traits because more capable people before the breeding age end up more often sent on individual missions with high mortality rates.

Please note that a large part of selection in real world is usually not just "not dying before you can breed" (that only weeds out extremely bad traits) but by being selected by a partner, staying long enough with partner or having multiple partners, and finally supporting the children so they won't die young. This varies from species to species, black widow spiders seem to have evolved just fine despite their peculiarities. Troll society seems to be adapted to continuous war by placing mating before going to war, and having a selection process early in life.

For all we know, Gamzee could be not intended to be useful in war, his role may be nothing but a living obstacle that weeds out overzealous racists and backstabbing assholes such as Equius and Dualscar. Once such function is performed, he can inspire much love and hatred, fill the buckets, then it won't matter if he ever gets involved in a war or for how long he survives in it.

[*] Not to say that such extremes are likely or even possible, but it's more likely than one random mutation producing fully-functional, extremely effective self-healing mechanism in otherwise ordinary human. It may be that before Wolverine could be born, his ancestors will have to be a relatively unattractive kind of mutants -- I would like to see comics dealing with this.

[Raizor]

About the outfit, it is a Felt outfit so the fact that they're similar is natural.

What I mean is, when Dave was drawn like that (can't remember exactly; the image I supplied was from a wallpaper thread) it may have been to foreshadow the revelation. Assuming Dave actually is connected to DS in some way.

Unlikely (to be intentional at least), considering that was a contribution from Lexxy of the art team, and the art team isn't really let in on any more information than we are, save for when they actually are contacted for contribution. And even then I'm pretty sure it's largely inferred.

[lexavian]

In Kanayas intro it said she was a lumberjack.

*Goes back to that point to check* So it did.
Never mind, I guess.

[KumaZone]

IDE/theory: The troll reproductive system was specifically engineered to speed up evolution. First, the complexity of troll romance is such that they have no end of things to kill each other over. This is compounded by the large number of things punishable by death, including failure to fill both filial pails when the imperial drone comes knocking. Second, incestual genetics tend to lead to mutations, right? The "incestual slurry" vital to troll breeding is likely the cause for the large number of mutations, such as the wide range of pigments, various psychic abilities, abnormal eyes, etc. And according to troll Charles Darwin, what do you get when you combine a high mortality rate with a high mutation rate? Evolution.

Additional points:

show spoiler

hide spoiler

The notion that someone would design a system this way is also fitting with evidence suggesting that the founders of troll civilization were familiar with sburb (encouraging wrigglers to design their own houses).

Also troll bioengineers can breed grubs to be videogames, computers, or trading card games, so it's plausible that the mother grub was deliberately bred to be used in troll reproduction.

this pretty much goes well with my theory that trolls were once the wimpiest speicies in paradox space, eventualy they got tierd of everyhting calling them wimps and started genetic enginering the poop out of themselves, resulting in big pointy horns, abnormal blood colors, and thus the hemo spectrum, and their murderous, war obsessed way of life.
Karkat's red blood ad nubby horns actualy make him the closest thing to one of the "original" trolls. he may or amy not be the troll messaiah.

[laserdogbad]

reposting from the main topic

jade wakes up with jack noir on her bed because of the new sb&hj upadet

[The_Codfish]

IDE/theory: The troll reproductive system was specifically engineered to speed up evolution. First, the complexity of troll romance is such that they have no end of things to kill each other over. This is compounded by the large number of things punishable by death, including failure to fill both filial pails when the imperial drone comes knocking. Second, incestual genetics tend to lead to mutations, right? The "incestual slurry" vital to troll breeding is likely the cause for the large number of mutations, such as the wide range of pigments, various psychic abilities, abnormal eyes, etc. And according to troll Charles Darwin, what do you get when you combine a high mortality rate with a high mutation rate? Evolution.

Additional points:

show spoiler

hide spoiler

The notion that someone would design a system this way is also fitting with evidence suggesting that the founders of troll civilization were familiar with sburb (encouraging wrigglers to design their own houses).

Also troll bioengineers can breed grubs to be videogames, computers, or trading card games, so it's plausible that the mother grub was deliberately bred to be used in troll reproduction.

this pretty much goes well with my theory that trolls were once the wimpiest speicies in paradox space, eventualy they got tierd of everyhting calling them wimps and started genetic enginering the poop out of themselves, resulting in big pointy horns, abnormal blood colors, and thus the hemo spectrum, and their murderous, war obsessed way of life.
Karkat's red blood ad nubby horns actualy make him the closest thing to one of the "original" trolls. he may or amy not be the troll messaiah.

The thing is, though, it's more likely (which is to say, THIS IS MY CANON BLUUUUUUUUH) that the Trolls were always like that. Because the ones who created them made the Trolls in such a way that they would dominate S****. They're trained from birth to become lethal killing machines (obviously not always successful), made to value love and friendship, and need to learn architectural skills when they're old enough.

[The NL Penguin]

IDE/Theory That stunt sword John had? It's totally gonna be used by dave at some point.

[lexavian]

reposting from the main topic

jade wakes up with jack noir on her bed because of the new sb&hj upadet

And he will be shaving.

Seriously though, what I think will happen is that the group of people currently in the bubble will at one point observe jack trying to and failing to kill her. At some point before they stop watching, he sits on the bed due to emotional exhaustion or lays near her legs like bec might've. Then they see him leave before moving on to the next thing to do on their tour of memories.

[Sprout]

Okay, here's a long one.

Lil Cal remains underground in Alternia for millenia, surviving the Vast Glub (because he's a puppet) and the destruction of Alternia. (because he's a puppet)

He is later discovered and excavated by a future civilization, restored, and put in a museum. Filled with rage and misery from his long time alone, he has gone insane. He manipulates events from the sidelines to end up in a S***b session, and then takes advantage of the Time player to transport himself through paradox space to a new session.

There, he continues his sneakery, culminating in combining his DNA with the MEOW code, creating himself, which he sends through paradox space to the Kid's Derse. However, Lil Cal is a puppet, and therefore cannot use First Guardian powers! He tricks the session into banishing him to empty paradox space- all part of the plan.

Meanwhile, a bitter, grown up, and completely deranged Gamzee is floating around. Too powerful to destroy, the remaining trolls sealed him away in paradox space. Cal needs a body to activate his potential, and Gamzee needs power to free himself. They merge together, creating....

Lord English.

[SwariSexualPosition]

OK, so we all know that Homestuck is kind of a creation myth, right?

Well, in Christian beliefs, there is a being called "The Antichrist," also referred to as "The Beast (666 is its mark)."

IDE/Theory: Lord English is the Homestuck creation myth's version of the Antichrist. Let's look at the comparisons.

1. First off, no one knows who either of them are. Many fans of this webcomic have speculated various characters who could be LE. Likewise, many Christians have speculated people who could be canidate for AC, but no one has guessed correctly... yet.

2. It is implied that LE's goal is to tear apart the universe, from its beginning to its end. This is just a larger scale of AC's plans, which is to cause the destruction of the world.

3. 1 John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

The "many antichrists" that have come are followers of the main Antichrist. Just like the followers of LE...?

4. The kicker:

1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

ALREADY IN THE WORLD.

HE IS ALREADY HERE.

i dunno, i was thinking randomly and the comparison between LE and AC hit me like a load of bricks.

[nupanick]

you had me at "1 John 4:3."

[SwariSexualPosition]

oh shit i didn't even notice that!

e: i topped page 69. how fitting.