Forum Updates and Realignment

[Vare E8]

I don't want the serious business forum to be removed, and I'm not sure if I understand the reasoning. For example, in the Sex Ed thread a little while ago, I had a pretty long debate about chivalry. Then some thoughts about feminism came into my mind, but instead of cluttering up the Sex Ed thread, I made a new one in serious business. If I continued to talk about feminism in that thread, I think we'll both agree it would be bad. Thus, I had to make a new one, and it worked well. I think the general attitude towards debates is "if it is small then okay, but anything big that consumes a thread should go in Serious Business"... with the removal of serious business, big intellectual discussions and debates will be few and far between, if present at all!

Eliminating general chat is a fine thing, but eliminating heavy intellectual discussions? I don't think that is so black and white justifiable. I realize things like this are tough to moderate and people get angry often, but I think it's worth it, even if you restrict discussion. It's important to debate things like chivalry, rights, government involvement, etc. in my opinion. I think it's a nice addition to the community. If the goal of this forum is to be "just MSPA and a few other things", then fine, we don't need serious business. But clearly, it is not. We have a fine community here, and I think the presence of a whole subforum about advice is enough precedent to advocate for a debate/serious business forum.

Of course the decision is up to you. I understand how it is a pain to moderate. It's just sad to see something go that really helped educate me in a lot of things.

EDIT: in general I support this movement, though!

[Cucurbita]

Sounds like good changes all around. You guys have my support and congratulations.

Might I take this time to suggest something simillar to what the fan adventure board have in their "idea suggestion thread" for the fan project board? Too often I see projects started by people who might have a great idea but not much more. This should be an easy enough way to remidate that.

[NotASenator]

If the goal of this forum is to be "just MSPA and a few other things", then fine, we don't need serious business. But clearly, it is not.

I am not trying to discount the rest of your point, but this is sort of the crux of it all. That is the goal. While we haven't been locked on the best course to achieve it in the past, that is the goal we're going for, and as you said, SB doesn't fit in that.

[SleepingOrange]

I don't want the serious business forum to be removed, and I'm not sure if I understand the reasoning.

Here is a helpfully-enumerated list of sample reasons SB is being retired, taken from the Secret Mod Forum that Doesn't exist:

- SB in its current incarnation was not working, as a subforum. I think even the regs would agree with this one. It was not the fault of the users, but more that we just don't have the infrastructure and staff to set up that kind of environment in an effective manner.
- after spending some time discussing it (and NaS and I talked about this a lot, and also a bit with you guys), we couldn't come up with a solution that we could feasibly implement and wasn't just a quick and likely ineffectual fix
- rather than trying to constantly bandaid the issue, we decided that we were going to stop attempting to be all things for all people. Yes, it would be nice if this forum was your one-stop-shop for all online social interaction, but essentially this is an MSPA fanhub and trying to divide our energies to cover a whole bunch of other stuff meant none of the goals of the forum were being met effectively; not just SB, but the other forum zones as well
- there are lots and lots of places on the internet which are dedicated to just that sort of thriving debate, and are better equipped than we are to provide an intellectually stimulating yet regulated environment.

In the end, this simply isn't a very good environment for trying to create and maintain civil and serious discussions about issues of import. Rather than continue to provide a subforum that was frustrating for many of its participants and all of the moderators (as well as one that was used very, very infrequently, especially compared to other subforums), we're simply saying it's time to find another place to take your debates.

[Vare E8]

I am not trying to discount the rest of your point, but this is sort of the crux of it all. That is the goal. While we haven't been locked on the best course to achieve it in the past, that is the goal we're going for, and as you said, SB doesn't fit in that.

I understand that much then.

Let me reiterate my pro-SB argument, then (might as well try!): If the advice column is justified under the grounds that it is useful for the community to have (which it is!), then I believe that a SB subforum is justified under the same grounds. An educational argument about how one should treat people (for example) is as useful as a discussion about how to pick up a date. I think helping remove ignorance is really important, wouldn't you say so? And, if discussions about important topics cannot be conducted in regular threads, wouldn't it be okay to have some place for them to overflow?

If not, I understand.

EDIT: ninja'd by SleepingOrange. Reasoning understood.

[Wheeeeeeatthins]

My only issue is that in official forum administrative edicts, the cause of Warelo's sacrifice has been attributed to bringing back someone who used to post a lot here instead of a noble sacrifice to end the plague of Serious Business once and for all. This is libel and my internet lawyers will take action if this is not rectified. We are not to be fooled with.
Expecting an expedient reply,
Miffed in Dallas

[Varkarrus]

I find hidden level is a little like Batman: It's goal is to no longer be needed.

And from what I've seen of the general chat thread, they were moderated really well. It was a friendly atmosphere, and we had 3 mods who all liked posting there who were all really cool folks.

In fact, while I joined this forum for MSPA discussion, I would have left long ago if it weren't for the general chat threads. Before I discovered them, I mostly lurked, posted a few suggestions in MSPAFs, and a bit in the Nerdcrap forums. I've tried joining other forums to visit before I started posting on MSPA, and frankly, the ones without general chat threads interested me so little, I left soon afterwards.

Right now, the only thing keeping me here is loyalty. And hope. And also MSPAFAs, I guess.

[Jacquerel]

This is a shame but I hope you've realised now that one man's insistence is not going to change anything.
Obviously you are entitled to your opinion but stating it repeatedly isn't really going to help, the staff have made a decision and explained it repeatedly and at length after discussing it with each other and your single voice is not going to change their minds.

You'll just have to keep reading MSPAFAs and try to suffer on without, I suppose.

[Avi]

@Vare
With regard to reported posts and infractions and so on, MSPA and Gen Chat are almost completely quiet, compared to when I first became a mod. Serious Business has been a constant problem for the past year. Its worst quality was how often threads became a neverending game of "my ideology and religion is vastly superior."
In the future, any serious topics can go in Can Town or the Advice Column and we'll just moderate them on a case by case basis. We already do this with the Sex Ed and Flip Out threads

i don't want to risk making a strawman account just in case it gets its hands on a really fine-quality hat

I enjoyed this post.

[deathsbuddy]

You should thank me, I had him read it.

[Esrever]

yeah i thought it was ok. some parts were a bit more well-done than others

I find hidden level is a little like Batman: It's goal is to no longer be needed.

And from what I've seen of the general chat thread, they were moderated really well. It was a friendly atmosphere, and we had 3 mods who all liked posting there who were all really cool folks.

In fact, while I joined this forum for MSPA discussion, I would have left long ago if it weren't for the general chat threads. Before I discovered them, I mostly lurked, posted a few suggestions in MSPAFs, and a bit in the Nerdcrap forums. I've tried joining other forums to visit before I started posting on MSPA, and frankly, the ones without general chat threads interested me so little, I left soon afterwards.

Right now, the only thing keeping me here is loyalty. And hope. And also MSPAFAs, I guess.

the thing about batman is that since he can never get what he wants he just sticks around forever

[Varkarrus]

that's because batman is too well loved by his non-fictional fans. If our world is a work of fiction and the fans love the antics of hidden level, then yeah, it will never go away.

but enough meta.

[Vare E8]

@Vare
In the future, any serious topics can go in Can Town or the Advice Column and we'll just moderate them on a case by case basis. We already do this with the Sex Ed and Flip Out threads.

Sorry to be posting so often, but is this the official stance towards things? If I wanted to have a healthy argument about some social issue I see, it could be posted in Can Town or the Advice Column without reprimand? If so, I would find that more than acceptable!

[Wheeeeeeatthins]

And from what I've seen of the general chat thread, they were moderated really well.

You've been here for all of the blow-ups that have happened in it: that one guy with the dead cat, the several times an ownage poster decided to sick burn the lmao nerds and go out in a glowing-pixel-in-an-unlighted-room blaze, the carryover from the pillweef bickering and the so-called best posters jumping ship, people whining and flipping out about single emoticon replies, people raging for pages in bitterness about an infraction they received, ten pages of contention about content posts vs. fast and loose posts followed by a promise to really try better this time which is forgotten ten pages later, the carryover from some times a thread (like a petition to change the horoscope) is locked...

How many blow-ups have there been since That One Thread stopped being a thing? For what general chat was doing for the forums as a whole, it wasn't worth the headache any longer.

[Weeaboo]

Well I am glad to see changes coming. I may only have been here for a little while, but change is always good. Right?

[Solaris]

Looking at my post count reminds me that I have lost my soul to this forum.
this is what i look like in real life now

show spoiler

hide spoiler

could we hypothetically get the option of removing post counts from posts so that i don't cry whenever i post?

also, when is the top banner announcing this going to be removable/go away? I realize that making it unremovable is important so that people see this but I can see how it might get a bit annoying.

[Varkarrus]

I think the blow-ups were worth it.

[Michael]

Not for those of us who got to be accused of oppression, corruption, racial and sexual discrimination, incompetence, vindictiveness and idiocy every time someone felt like being outraged.

[Paul]

Also everybody else who felt really uncomfortable and awkward while they happened, violently mashing the report button just hoping it would end

;w;

[kyriaki]

I think the blow-ups were worth it.

That's probably because you weren't responsible for defusing them.

You raised a good point in that several of the mods liked genchat, at least in some regard, and the fact that so many of them now participate on HL i think is proof of that.

But being likable is not the same as being manageable.

The mods/admins felt that they were no longer willing or capable of moerating the type of discussion that genchat engendered. For various reasons, (mainly a much, much smaller userbase) Hidden Level is able to support that level of interaction whereas MSPAF is not.

MSPAF is like a tiger cub that grew up in our bedrooms. no matter how adorable it was and how much we loved it, it is ow simply too big for us to play with the way we used to and we have to move on.

the good news is we have a new kitten named hidden level and it's super cute and fuzzy!!!! so now we can play with our new kitty friend instead, and if you want to you can still visit your grown-up tiger friend in the zoo! you just can't pick him up and carry him around anymore because he's several hundred pounds now and will eat you. :/

[Ed]

You just don't understand.

You're doing something that differs from my personal preferences, even though there's other places where i wouldn't have to restrain myself from typing every single thing that goes in my brilliant little mind, this is the place where i want to do it.

This should be your top priority because i'm a member of your forum, in which you're working really hard to offer a nice experience in exchange for pretty much nothing.

You should be ashamed, modmins.

[Vare E8]

I want to get as much feedback as possible on the possible changes before doing anything in case I am missing something stupid or there's a better way to do it.

@ed, jacq

People have a right to voice their opinion. Otherwise the thread wouldn't be open for discussion.


EDIT: can I have an official response to this post? I trust Avi but I know there have been discrepancies in what rules are before.

[NotASenator]

I want to get as much feedback as possible on the possible changes before doing anything in case I am missing something stupid or there's a better way to do it.

@ed, jacq

People have a right to voice their opinion. Otherwise the thread wouldn't be open for discussion.


EDIT: can I have an official response to this post? I trust Avi but I know there have been discrepancies in what rules are before.

We'll talk about it tomorrow.

[SleepingOrange]

I believe that was directed primarily at Varkarrus, Vare E8; there's expressing one's opinion and engaging the modmins (as you've done), and then there's expressing one's opinion repeatedly past the point there is any reason to and insisting that the forum should cleave to their needs.

So let's be clear about this: Varkarrus, please don't continue posting unless you have something salient to add to the discussion. The reasons why a general chattery thread is not going to happen have been laid out; your concerns are noted, but have already been extensively discussed by the administrative team and they do not share them.

[Vare E8]

Thank you very kindly.

E: SleepingOrange, your ninjaing is the bane of my existence -- but, I understand, cheers.