The Sburb mechanic may have taken into account that the pre-scratch players are coming, and thus doesn't need a Hero of Time.
The Sburb mechanic may have taken into account that the pre-scratch players are coming, and thus doesn't need a Hero of Time.
Librarian of Life
Myself and my character love books, organization, genetic engineering, that sort of thing.
Lifey Thing: Bring others back to life, extend their life force (you won't bleed out?), creates life (say....lifey tendrils)
The enya gram was interesting to say the least (I had a hard time deciding how to get the title, but the actual thing was good)
Land of Runes and Archives.
But still, I don't see how a Hero of Time would be totally necessary. It'd make it incredibly challenging to play without one, though, since everyone would be crunched for time since there'd be no way to go back and prolong gameplay.
Step outside on a typical February morning, and you too can be a Seer of Breath, lol.
But yeah, does sound like a glorified weatherman. Useful day-to-day, but in Sburb/Sgrub? Not so sure.
Dang not many pages up in here!
I'm Page of Hope awwl yeah biptches I got Jake's title.... I wonder what a hero of hope's powers would be
I still like Fool of Rage as a title.
The Great GigaPause Homestuck Reread and Discussion
*If you want to add me on Skype, please send me a PM first. I'm not so good with names I don't recognize*
(rest of my Sig under the cut)
I think that would be a case of aspect changing with class, then. Breath might not mean wind, maybe actual breathing - rise & fall, person's condition, tactical moments to attack, something like that.
Personally I'd agree that Time players are not strictly essential or seeded to every group but, without one, a group would have to be incredibly well prepared and competent since any doomed timeline could cause a loss for the session (unless you have another means for doomed timelines to influence the alpha timeline)
On the same note, I'd hold that Space players aren't ubiquitous either and that, without one, the frog breeding duties are simply given to another aspect.
On another note, there's a couple things of speculation from the hero title thread I'd like to drop in here.
First from Paradoxius
Isn't it great how the scratch skin makes it so that even what is meant to DECEIVE us only affects the other HALF?
It's funny, scratch skin may reveal to it's users the normally invisible but we BOTH know it's not the whole TRUTH.
Since Vriska mentions having Cetus as her denizen, we can infer that Aspect governs which denizen a player will have. Heroes of Breath will have Typheus, Heroes of Light will have Cetus, Heroes of Time will have Hephaestus, and Heroes of Space will have Echidna.
It's already been established that Space players will have their dreamselves awake early, have their house be the lab near the Frog ruins and the Forge, and all that jazz. It's also established that, in special situations involving the Space player (such as coming in from another session after a Scratch), a player with a different aspect will be living there. The Forge, despite being an active volcano, never erupts on the space player, but in End of Act 6 Intermission 1, we see in the clouds that the Jake's Forge does. Since they're basically the exact same volcano, and since the Forge is essential to fulfilling their duties, I posit that, in addition to their more overt abilities, Space players also have the power to suppress the eruption of the Forge. Of course, it could also be argued that Jake's volcano erupting and Jade and Kanaya's not erupting is just geological coincidence.
A lot about "required" roles of titles is speculation since we only have 2 established example sessions. Has it ever been explicitly stated that the Knight necessarily has to help with the frog duties? Some things, like denizens being linked to aspects, make sense, but I don't see a reason why the knight is always the frog assistant.
It's like saying player 1 is always the ectobiologist just because it happened to be Karkat in A2 and John in B1. We don't have a solid basis for it to be a set pattern.
Last edited by King Cobalt; 01-02-2012 at 11:03 PM.
My initial impression about the mage role was that it might involve performing long-term, high-tech projects invoking their aspect- SGrub in Sollux's case.
It might be more about the intense, direct psychic powers 'though. That now seems more likely to me.
Or it could be both, or something else entirely.
When it comes to lands:
Most of the lands we see seem to have one of their themes related to their players' aspects. A few don't seem to relate to their players' aspects, and some have both parts related to their players' aspects. Then there are some where the other thing seems to fit for another aspect. It may be that the ones that seem to relate to no aspect relate to aspects that didn't appear in the sessions we see, but some . I'd say:
Wind - Breath
Shade - ??
Light - Light
Rain - A water-related aspect?
Heat - A fire-related aspect?
Clockwork - Time
Frost - A water-related aspect?
Frogs - Space
Quartz - Time? An earth-related aspect?
Melody - Time, perhaps also Heart.
Sand - An earth-related aspect? Time?
Zephyr - Breath
Brains - Mind?
Fire - A fire-related aspect?
Pulse - Blood
Haze - ??
Little Cubes - Seems unlikely to be associated with any aspect.
Tea - Heart? Doesn't seem that related. Possibly also a water-related or fire-related aspect?
In fact, both these themes seem random enough that they give the impression that just about any word is probably a potential Land theme (or at least has a synonym that is). Taking the top words from two pages of a scrabble dictionary gave "Land of Flyboys and Rangers"
Frogs - Space
Rays - Probably light. LoRaF, like the light planets, is ocean, which it seems likely Cetus needs.
Thought - Mind
Flow - ??
Maps - Space would seem to fit, except it seems as 'though Space always gets Frogs.
Treasure - Light
Cave - Void
Ruin - Doom?
Tents - Not quite LCaT level randomness, but it's still hard to see what this could fit.
Mirth - Heart?
Neither of Gamzee's land themes seem to match Rage.
Wrath - Wrath, obviously
Angels - Hope? Perhaps also Doom?
Dew - A water-related aspect? Life?
Glass - Time?
Last edited by Kuyan J; 01-03-2012 at 12:10 AM.
If we go for literal definitions, a Mage is someone with extraordinary skill, influence, or qualities. And Sollux has this in the form of possibly being the most powerful troll psychic, starting up Sgrub, and having two Dream Selves (and also having had VISION TWOFOLD as a prophet). The CLASSES might not give players special abilities like their ASPECTS do, but instead give them traits.
Like how the Witch always seems to consort with powerful entities (Bec and Gl'bgolyb). Or how Heirs have an extreme amount of MANGRIT or at least an exponential growth rate for it. Or how Knights seem to be trained for battle (Karkat and CRAB BATTLES with Crabdad, Dave and Bro's HASHRAP FIGHTS). Or Seers being planners and having the ability to actually hear their EXILE speak to them.
I took the title test from Land of Bells and Shadow and got Priest of Heart....
Ahahaha...;-; I sound so useless. The personality tests were really accurate, but...
Do I preach about love and friendship all day?
Some of these powers sound really mysterious, like Blood and Heart and Void. I hope Andrew Hussies elaborates on them eventually.
I'm pleased to see the discussion picking up at this pace.
Although I guess I kind of made a double thread. Whoops!
Also, it apparently should've read "Class and Aspect" instead of Role. Double whoops!
I won't stop you from posting here, but maybe we should ask a mod to merge this thread into Diffractor or Ranter's? Probably the latter, because 28 pages of existing discussion.
In the meanwhile, let me respond to some of your replies.
... Or were you waiting to become the Seer of Piss, or something?
Similarly, the Duke of Tears refers back to the boy Dennis mentioned in GameBro's review of Sburb. Andrew once called him the Douche of Tears in the Land of Stairs and Thumb Fractions, or something (on his old FormSpring).
Doc Scratch being unsure of what to call Slick... --> Hero of Void
Fanfictions existing featuring the White Queen in the role of Mindfang --> Thief, or other Hero of Mind/Heart.
A Land of Ruins would probably fit the Time or Space player more. (Land of Ruins and Strings, anyone?)
As for seemingly random class/aspect combinations, I guess Seer of Breath takes the cake? Although Seer of Void would be rather dumb too.
I registered on this forum to contribute to this thread! Hi everyone.
What I wanted to do first was lay out my baseline assumptions when thinking about the Roles/Classes/Aspects and how they tie into the game, to see if we can get a consensus on those. Some of this may be so obvious as not to need stating, others might be controversial?
ASSUMPTION ONE: The minimum number of players in a Sburb session is two. CERTITUDE RANK: 9/10
EVIDENCE: This seems to follow from the server/client structure. I guess with two computers one could act as one's own server player, but that seems warped and like it might be something the game prohibits. Plus, as I'll claim later, there need to be at least two players and thus two worlds for some important game features to manifest.
ASSUMPTION TWO: There is no maximum number of players. CERTITUDE: 3/10
Evidence: Well, we've seen that it can go as high as 12, and possibly 48 if we count the number of troll zodiac signs as evidence. But there doesn't seem to be any reason to limit the number of players unless you can run out of classes and aspects to allocate? And it would seem like a major free will violation for the game to prevent it. How would it stop you? Free will is a tricky subject with Sburb in general of course. idk.
ASSUMPTION THREE: All sessions must have a Hero of Space, who is associated with a planet of the form Land of X and Frogs. This planet will also feature the Forge (volcano). CERTITUDE 9/10
Evidence: Both sessions followed this pattern exactly. Since frog-breeding is critical to the game, and Space always seems to go with it, it seems hard to imagine how you could have a session without them.
ASSUMPTION FOUR: All sessions must have a Hero of Time. Their planet will feature the means of causing the Scratch (example: Beat Mesa). CERTITUDE: 7/10
Evidence: Doc Scratch pretty much says this when speaking to Rose about the Scratch. The ability to cause the Scratch isn't as essential to the game as breeding frogs is (after all, if you succeed in the session the first time, you don't need it); but it does seem to be a major part of the game's feature set. There also appears to be a close linkage between the planets of Space and Time (due to the Forge and Hephaestus), so if Space is mandatory, it seems more likely that Time is too.
It follows from A3 and A4 that a two player session would feature Heroes of Time and Space alone, which forms a pleasing duo. It also seems likely that on this basis, the scratched kids' session counts as an eight player session with Jade and Dave as its heroes of Space and Time (This means PSpace is accounting for the merger all along.)
ASSUMPTION FIVE: If any of the Classes are mandatory in each session, the only ones that can be are Heir, Seer, Knight and Witch. CERTITUDE: 4/10.
Evidence: These four classes are present in both sessions seen in detail. This used to seem a safe assumption, but given that the kid's session and the scratched session appear to be headed for a merger of sorts, it's not so clear cut any more; the kids are effectively getting additional classes added to their mixture, and if this was paradox space's plan all along...
NOTE: If assumption one holds, only two of these can be mandatory - if forced to guess I'd go with the Heir and the Witch as the mandatory ones (but then Feferi and Equius didn't seem to be especially critical in any way because of their classes, so Huss knows).
ASSUMPTION SIX Aspects and Classes are never duplicated within a session. (So you never get two Rogues, or two players of Blood.) CERTITUDE: 7/10
Evidence: There were no clashes among the trolls. Plus it seems kinda lame if there were duplicates, people wouldn't get their own special niche. Technically if there's an infinite number of Aspects and Classes to choose from (see assumption two), even if they are always picked completely at random (outside of the mandatory ones), clashes wouldn't happen anyway. (The jury is out as to whether this is preserved in a merged session such as we seem to be heading for with the kids and the scratch kids- my bet is PSpace is going to ensure there's no duplicates there either.)
POSSIBLE COROLLARY: Does PSpace ensure that no duplicates can even be PRESENT in a session - so there can't be two heroes of Space in the scratched session, even if one isn't technically PART of that session in he sense of having a planet there? If so what does this imply about Kanaya's fate? (Aradia seems to have ruled herself out at least for now of participation in the scratched session).
ASSUMPTION SEVEN: The "interpretation" of Aspects is constant across all game sessions. (e.g. "Light" is always to do with luck and probability, in addition to/instead of its more literal meanings.). CERTITUDE: 5/10
Evidence: Light seems to have the same essential interpretation in both the Troll session and the Kids session. This isn't the same as saying that all heroes of Light have the same powers, as it appears the powers are different depnding on the Class (so Vriska stole luck as the Thief, and Rose forecasts outcomes as the Seer), but "Light" in some way means the same sort of thing in both cases, in a way that isn't immediately obvious from the straightforward meaning of the word "Light".
This would mean that if there were say, a Knight of Light, he wouldn't just fight with lasers or something, but would somehow fight using the forces of luck and probability??
ASSUMPTION EIGHT: The "interpretation" of Classes is constant across all game sessions. (e.g. Knights always use their Aspects for martial prowess, Heirs are always "provided with the means for them to achieve maturation") CERTITUDE: 2/10.
Evidence: This just seems logical given assumption 7, but there isn't much direct evidence of it. In particular, Equius doesn't really seem to mature in any fashion I can discern despite being an Heir. Really we just haven't seen enough about the nature of the Classes to draw many conclusions on this. This may become clearer over the scratched session as we gain insight into what "Page" and "Maid" mean in practice for Jake and Jane.
ASSUMPTION NINE: The name of a planet may have something to do with the respecitve player's Class, Aspect, or both, but this isn't necessary. CERTITUDE: 4/10.
Evidence: It would be neat and tidy if all Planet names were based directly on Aspects, Classes or both, but this just doesn't seem to be the case based on the counter-examples we have: what do Little Cubes and Tea have to do with either Rogue or Heart? What do Dew and Glass have to do with Witch or Life? It seems more like the planets are based on general themes of personality and the like; the Classes/Aspects may have an influence but they also might not. (Except the Frogs = Space linkage, which seems very strong as far as we've seen).
Of course part of the problem is that we're not always sure exactly what an Aspect or Class "means" in Sburb terms - it may be there is some linkage between the way Sburb interprets "Heart" and the concept of tea, just as there's a surprising linkage between "Light" and the concept of luck...
Secondly, I do think that there's no limit to the amount of players like you, seems logical, but it makes me wonder how it would work if loads of planets are around Skaia. I mean, I don't think that there's really room for dozens of planets. Twelve is already quite crowded if the "Mobius Double Reacharound" image of the Trolls is in the right scale. Also, how would that work for the dream planets? There can't fit too many towers on the moons, unless more moons appear if there are so many players.
Last edited by Blaperile; 01-03-2012 at 11:53 AM.
Regarding one of the classes:
I think that Bard has the ability to 'buff' and 'debuff' with relation to their aspect. Their manipulation of their aspect is generally more subtle and less direct, but incredibly powerful due to the unique quality of the effects. I get this from a combination of a bard's role in using music to affect the morale of a group and how the bard class is played in Everquest as a result. Depending on how a bard plays, they can make the difference between victory and defeat, despite generally not involving themselves in battle. Gamzee managed to doom the kids' session merely by inducing a little bit of specifically targeted rage. That is a testament to the subtle and strong effects a bard can have.
Last edited by Gzar; 01-03-2012 at 12:15 PM.
On the subject of maximum amount of players per session:
There indeed seems to be nothing restricting a near infinite amount of players, except for the space there is on Prospit and Derse for more towers, around Skaia for planets and around the frog temple for towers. I can testify that adding more towers becomes increasingly difficult:
But! In the troll session, the twelve towers around the - granted, bifurcated - Frog Temples were divided into two circles.
The same could be done with the planets, in as much circles as is needed for the amount of players.
Prospit and Derse, on the other hand, seem to exhibit a strange sort of spatial properties. As seen during [S] Jack: Ascend: there may be more room on the globes than you'd expect. Think Escher-like architecture.
Third to lastly, we have to go deeper think in 3D, too. Just because in the troll and kid session, all planets and towers are in the same plane, it doesn't mean this goes for all sessions. You could have planets revolving around Skaia at all angles.
Second to lastly, maybe some players will just have to make due and share a planet/bedroom.
Lastly, if shared dream bedrooms are inappropriate (i.e. not (ecto)biological siblings), then there are ways to fit multiple globes onto those towers.
[EDIT] 612 posts?! Crappy animation powers, activate!
For the most part I agree with your assumptions. I'd add
ASSUMPTION TEN: CERTITUDE 6/10
There are hierarchies of both classes and attributes beyond the mandatory attributes and possibly classes for a 2 player session. This is a corollary of the weakened assumption two unless all of classes in assumption 5 are necessary given that the class and attribute lists for the two smaller sessions are strict subsets of larger session. I'm therefore going to posit a minimum session size for things.
ASSUMPTION ELEVEN: CERTITUDE 4/10
Each aspect has a passive and active manifestation. I consider this a corollary of assumption seven given that it's hard to make sense of some class/aspect combinations otherwise (eg. seer of breath) The Seer seems to typify the passive manifestation and the knight the active manifestation. Other classes may vary by aspect or be hybrids. Time and Space appear to by exceptions. It makes no sense for them to manifest in ways not suited to their fixed game roles so if they have multiple manifestations all players probably exhibit them. In a sense they are a single aspect split among two players.
I guess the orbital radius could always be made bigger to accommodate more planets. I guess that would require pushing Derse and the Furthest Ring further out and so on... As plainWonder points out, you could non-coplanar orbits too. In general you can just scale up the radius of all the orbits, Propsit and Derse to pack more towers in, a wider ring around the Frog Temple etc. (I guess the hard limit on Frog temple size would be the size of the host planet! Unless the temple was bigger than the planet it was on....). Of course would have to keep the towers around the temple the same size while increasing the radius of their circle....
Anyway THIS IS EXTREMELY SILLY (writes fan-fiction about a six billion player session)