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Thread: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

  1. #126
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    And in fact it makes no sense in deterministic universes like Homestuck! If safetyboots is destined to win, he will and thus a universe will be born. If he's destined not to win then there was never going to be a universe in the first place!
    Everyone Sburb killed deserved exactly what they got, and it was all for the best. Team Sburb unite!

  2. #127
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Is this thread still about a semi sentient cosmic entity that has a civilization to play a game to propagate a new universe?
    The Great GigaPause Homestuck Reread and Discussion
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  3. #128

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Just so you know, it is very hypocritical to argue the incommeasurability of human life and suffering, as well as human potential - and then do a complete 180 and start weighing it, and the principles behind it, against exponential life and universal potential.

    Life either cannot be weighed against the universal potential, or it can. But you cannot disregard an argument and then just retreat back to it.

  4. #129
    Can never stay mad at Cal/cats Nokob's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by reignonyourparade View Post
    Sure, we don't have PROOF that sburb ALWAYS destroys civilizations, but we have no evidence to the contrary, so saying that ALL OF THE EVIDENCE WE CURRENTLY HAVE is outlying simply because it's convenient to the story you're constructing is rhetorically dirty.
    Hmmm, fair enough. But I guess what I was really trying to say is that we have no evidence that it is the game itself that ensures the destruction of the civilizations.

  5. #130
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    the solution would be to genetically engineer a genesis frog which's reproductive system makes a full circle. Then sburb wouldn't act like a virus, using a civilized planet as a host to groom beings created by itself, and then using those beings to procreate itself into a new genesis frog.

    Since the original genesis frog is found on earth and is not, in fact, created by the game, sburb seems more like a parasite that accelerates the process of reproduction and injects itself in the new frog.

    We also have more evidence of game constructs being antagonistic, Echidna lets Doc Scratch in through the scratch just because she was asked for a solution peacefully, so he could groom new players without the interference of the former universe's players.

    In fact, the purpose of the game seems to be to make the new universe reach sentient life as fast as possible.

    Also, we don't know if first guardians are a necessary part of the process, since they only seem to appear in sessions that have no gods from their mother universe.
    Last edited by volcanicRage; 12-08-2011 at 11:21 PM.

  6. #131
    Just a wolfram, call me Wess. Wessolf27's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by safetyboots View Post
    I can not have a change of mind? Anyway, not hypocritical. My English is terrible at best, and I usually lose myself in my own ideas.

    Regardless, you just misunderstood. Lives are not negotiable, even when we speak of infinite potential. I believe I was faithful to this line of thought during the course of the discussion.
    No, you're saying that you're not playing the game because it kills people, and then the moment that people ask how you're exactly going to do it, you say that you're going to play the game, which kills people. What exactly are you trying to say? Because we're going around and around with no idea just what the heck you're talking about. You don't have any ideas, or at least, give a try at it because all you do is deny the matter entirely or just tell us that you're just going to wing it with determination and force.

    Don't you think the kids have been trying to do the same thing in Homestuck, yet repeatedly they were thwarted? Rose most of all wanted to break the game most, but she was played by both Doc Scratch AND the Horrorterrors, both of whom had orchestrated for the destruction of the Kids' and the Trolls' universes along with creating the Green Sun and releasing Lord English. Which all together, compared to just playing the game normally would have resulted in less lives and less planets within universes destroyed, along with having a Universe-virus that essentially eats away at other universes! And what's more is that she was just winging it all the way.

    Even then, Rose knew she was being played, but she didn't know HOW was she being played.

    I'm not going to say that there aren't any other possibilities on either breaking the game or stopping the destruction of universes, but if you're just going to blindly go around SBURB trying to destroy the game, or try to destroy the game outside of SBURB then you're pretty much F'd up.

    And with how the universe within Homestuck is set up, the determinism of the universe will always find a way to thwart the attempt to destroy the game because as events go, there have been many events that have happened within SBURB that can very well have happened way before you were able to think of a plan to destroy its system, such as the FG already existing before the arrival of the dominant species. To try and thwart what has already been set within the whole of timeline will be for null and even if you did, it would send the whole version of that universe to a doomed timeline slated for destruction.

    So unless you don't have a good idea on how you're supposed to break the game, how can you say that you can stop it? Besides, just try to wait it out. Hussie might eventually show us one way of breaking the game. All right?

  7. #132
    volcanicRage's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    I think he never actually meant to say he wouldn't play the game, just that he would do everything in his power to stop it from sacrificing anything. I think you people are just ganging up on him because you find strenght in numbers and are not actually thinking what you say.

    If the reproductive system of a genesis frog is strong enough to fight the determinism of a heat death, then it must be strong enough to do so without the sacrifice of life, seeing as this life serves in no way to fuel it, it's just a completely meaningless sacrifice. It just serves the purpose of getting exiles out of their constant fights to aid the players into birthing another sburb plagued universe.
    Last edited by volcanicRage; 12-08-2011 at 11:29 PM.

  8. #133
    Just a wolfram, call me Wess. Wessolf27's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    the solution would be to genetically engineer a genesis frog which's reproductive system makes a full circle. Then sburb wouldn't act like a virus, using a civilized planet as a host to groom beings created by itself, and then using those beings to procreate itself into a new genesis frog.

    Since the original genesis frog is found on earth and is not, in fact, created by the game, sburb seems more like a parasite that accelerates the process of reproduction and injects itself in the new frog.

    We also have more evidence of game constructs being antagonistic, Echidna lets Doc Scratch in through the scratch just because she was asked for a solution peacefully, so he could groom new players without the interference of the former universe's players.

    In fact, the purpose of the game seems to be to make the new universe reach sentient life as fast as possible.

    Also, we don't know if first guardians are a necessary part of the process, since they only seem to appear in sessions that have no gods from their mother universe.
    It's never stated that the Genesis Frog was found on Earth, there's no evidence to point that fact. It existed at a very small point of time, and yes, we were able to see it, but who is to say that the Frog wasn't carried to Earth with the meteor containing the Frog Temple?

    Another thing is that the Denizens are as neutral to the matter. There was no mention that Echidna had a bargain with Doc Scratch. Where did it say this? I've combed the logs, and I haven't seen anything of the sort. If anything, the only thing we know Echidna do was to make a bargain with Jade: that was that she was going to reveal the location of the Genesis Frog in exchange that she would find a way to bring the Beta Incipisphere to the Alpha Incipisphere, nothing more. Further more, Hepheaestus talked with Davesprite twice, both times he offered some sort of aid to him.

  9. #134
    Can never stay mad at Cal/cats Nokob's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessolf27 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    the solution would be to genetically engineer a genesis frog which's reproductive system makes a full circle. Then sburb wouldn't act like a virus, using a civilized planet as a host to groom beings created by itself, and then using those beings to procreate itself into a new genesis frog.

    Since the original genesis frog is found on earth and is not, in fact, created by the game, sburb seems more like a parasite that accelerates the process of reproduction and injects itself in the new frog.

    We also have more evidence of game constructs being antagonistic, Echidna lets Doc Scratch in through the scratch just because she was asked for a solution peacefully, so he could groom new players without the interference of the former universe's players.

    In fact, the purpose of the game seems to be to make the new universe reach sentient life as fast as possible.

    Also, we don't know if first guardians are a necessary part of the process, since they only seem to appear in sessions that have no gods from their mother universe.
    It's never stated that the Genesis Frog was found on Earth, there's no evidence to point that fact. It existed at a very small point of time, and yes, we were able to see it, but who is to say that the Frog wasn't carried to Earth with the meteor containing the Frog Temple?
    In fact, the frog is sendificated to Earth. So yeah, we have no idea where it came from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessolf27 View Post
    Another thing is that the Denizens are as neutral to the matter. There was no mention that Echidna had a bargain with Doc Scratch. Where did it say this? I've combed the logs, and I haven't seen anything of the sort. If anything, the only thing we know Echidna do was to make a bargain with Jade: that was that she was going to reveal the location of the Genesis Frog in exchange that she would find a way to bring the Beta Incipisphere to the Alpha Incipisphere, nothing more. Further more, Hepheaestus talked with Davesprite twice, both times he offered some sort of aid to him.
    I believe the relevant passage is this one (Echidna being the "mother of all monsters"):
    The heroes, understanding their defeat was absolute, sought advice from the mother of all monsters. She offered them a choice. The heroes could either accept their defeat along with the extinction of their race, and put no others at risk. Or, she could show them a path to a second chance, to a reality in which the chosen heroes of their race would be strong enough to succeed with ease, and claim the reward. This reset would come at the cost of wiping the failed heroes from existence. They would live new lives from scratch, playing different roles in the reset reality, with no memory of the game they played or the choice they made.
    (Huh. Kind of relevant to the current discussion, isn't it?)

  10. #135
    Just a wolfram, call me Wess. Wessolf27's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nokob View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wessolf27 View Post
    Another thing is that the Denizens are as neutral to the matter. There was no mention that Echidna had a bargain with Doc Scratch. Where did it say this? I've combed the logs, and I haven't seen anything of the sort. If anything, the only thing we know Echidna do was to make a bargain with Jade: that was that she was going to reveal the location of the Genesis Frog in exchange that she would find a way to bring the Beta Incipisphere to the Alpha Incipisphere, nothing more. Further more, Hepheaestus talked with Davesprite twice, both times he offered some sort of aid to him.
    I believe the relevant passage is this one (Echidna being the "mother of all monsters"):
    The heroes, understanding their defeat was absolute, sought advice from the mother of all monsters. She offered them a choice. The heroes could either accept their defeat along with the extinction of their race, and put no others at risk. Or, she could show them a path to a second chance, to a reality in which the chosen heroes of their race would be strong enough to succeed with ease, and claim the reward. This reset would come at the cost of wiping the failed heroes from existence. They would live new lives from scratch, playing different roles in the reset reality, with no memory of the game they played or the choice they made.
    (Huh. Kind of relevant to the current discussion, isn't it?)
    All right, yeah, I know Echidna's the mother of all monsters, but you've proved your point. However, what triggered that problem in the first place? I'd like to point out the same page.

    On the eve of their race's extinction, the twelve heroes would begin playing a game. They would make an admirable effort, but they would fail. Their civilization had not prepared them for the rigors of this game, and the ultimate reward would fall shy of their grasp. But their failure was more comprehensive, more systemic, than a result of simple inadequacy so common to young players of this game. Though they could not recognize it for the bad omen it was, this session was not the one in which they had been spawned. Such is the symptom of a subtle glitch affecting certain sessions, an error designed to trigger an unfathomable cascade of misfortune throughout paradox space. This glitch is the calling card of the one I serve. It is the discreet, gentlemanly manner in which he reserves his place in a universe for later visitation.
    If you're trying to say that Echidna was doing this so that it can Doc Scratch and Lord English could enter, please note that Lord English had already presented itself in the form of a glitch with the troll's pre-scratch universe in which these set of trolls weren't the ones to create themselves and their ancestors., thus causing a major paradoxical error to occur. So they made a bargain with Echidna to reset their session. She couldn't exactly prevent the arrival of Doc Scratch in the post-scratch session since it has already been set on their universe in the first place.

  11. #136
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Yes it's exactly that one, Ecidna facilitates the ancestors one of her quills and they use it to scratch the beat mesa, restarting their universe. Scratch also mentions that is where he is created as a first guardian, sent to alternia even before it had any kind of life.

    Also we see Bec kill the sendificated frog. Even if it's not from earth I believe the first guardians are made for this purpose, killing the frog so that a ecto-clone is needed, an ecto-clone made with skaian technology.
    Last edited by volcanicRage; 12-09-2011 at 02:53 AM.

  12. #137
    Just a wolfram, call me Wess. Wessolf27's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    Yes it's exactly that one, Ecidna facilitates the ancestors one of her quills and they use it to scratch the beat mesa, restarting their universe. Scratch also mentions that is where he is created as a first guardian, sent to earth even before it had any kind of life.

    Also we see Bec kill the sendificated frog. Even if it's not from earth I believe the first guardians are made for this purpose, killing the frog so that a ecto-clone is needed, an ecto-clone made with skaian technology.
    Then what? Don't those trolls deserve another try? There was a glitch in their session, which means that it wasn't the fault of the game or the trolls, but LE's fault.

    Furthermore, where are you getting that ecto-slime has a chance of making people/frogs/FG's work for the game? You're making this up.

  13. #138
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    God, must you make this personal everytime someone contradicts what you think? I'm obviously making this up, it's a theory, and there's no way it's true since Hussie isn't going so much for the gray moralities and more for the completely white, completely black. (With this I mean He's isn't going to throw a "Skaia is evil" at this point in the story)

    I'm not saying the trolls don't deserve another try, I'm just saying that I think this second chance came with a very steep price. The old gods (former players) were erased with that universe and the game now could get a First Guardian in.

    This is all speculation and it all falls apart if First Guardians are an universal constant. I just think they are not because they are fueled by the green sun, which is outright called an anomaly.

    Also, those trolls were never told what the "Ultimate Prize" was, they hadn't won the game. They didn't even know what they were killing themselves for.
    Last edited by volcanicRage; 12-09-2011 at 02:54 AM.

  14. #139
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessolf27 View Post
    If you're trying to say that Echidna was doing this so that it can Doc Scratch and Lord English could enter, please note that Lord English had already presented itself in the form of a glitch with the troll's pre-scratch universe in which these set of trolls weren't the ones to create themselves and their ancestors., thus causing a major paradoxical error to occur. So they made a bargain with Echidna to reset their session. She couldn't exactly prevent the arrival of Doc Scratch in the post-scratch session since it has already been set on their universe in the first place.
    LE is a paradox himself, we don't know what caused this paradox, it could have been the game preventing the players from winning to make the scratch inevitable.

  15. #140

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    How is lord english a paradox? He seems like the opposite to me, engineering his own existence is internally consistent.

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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    The moment he enters reality he's everywhere in it. By making Doc scratch enter the troll's universe he paves a way in for himself, but it's him making way for Doc scratch too. That seems like a paradox to me.

  17. #142
    Can never stay mad at Cal/cats Nokob's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    This is all speculation and it all falls apart if First Guardians are an universal constant. I just think they are not because they are fueled by the green sun, which is outright called an anomaly.
    Wait, where is the Green Sun called an anomaly?

    And First Guardians do seem to be a constant:
    Scratch is Alternia's FIRST GUARDIAN. Every planet destined for intelligent life has such an entity meant to protect it, and facilitate the planet's ultimate purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessolf27 View Post
    If you're trying to say that Echidna was doing this so that it can Doc Scratch and Lord English could enter, please note that Lord English had already presented itself in the form of a glitch with the troll's pre-scratch universe in which these set of trolls weren't the ones to create themselves and their ancestors., thus causing a major paradoxical error to occur. So they made a bargain with Echidna to reset their session. She couldn't exactly prevent the arrival of Doc Scratch in the post-scratch session since it has already been set on their universe in the first place.
    The thing about that page is that it tells us that Echidna's part of the bargain was carried out by Scratch. This suggests that they're in cahoots, although it's far from certain.

  18. #143

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    The moment he enters reality he's everywhere in it. By making Doc scratch enter the troll's universe he paves a way in for himself, but it's him making way for Doc scratch too. That seems like a paradox to me.
    Time travel paradoxes are when events prevent themselves from occurring. Events that cause themselves are merely confusing.

  19. #144
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Well I forgot the first guardians being a constant being outright said. Still, the destruction of two universes to fuel an energy source seems like an uncommon ocurrence to me, if the game was so glitchy it had to destroy two universes every playthrough that's four planets you're dooming. Actually that's three universes counting the ancestors' one.

  20. #145
    Can never stay mad at Cal/cats Nokob's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    Well I forgot the first guardians being a constant being outright said. Still, the destruction of two universes to fuel an energy source seems like an uncommon ocurrence to me, if the game was so glitchy it had to destroy two universes every playthrough that's four planets you're dooming. Actually that's three universes counting the ancestors' one.
    Well, as far as we know there's only one Green Sun, used throughout Paradox Space.

  21. #146
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Still, it seems really weird that the game kills its own creations to fuel their guardians.

  22. #147
    Can never stay mad at Cal/cats Nokob's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Well, Doc Scratch was the one who made sure it was created. Perhaps the game just used it because it was there, in a way.

  23. #148
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    Still, it seems really weird that the game kills its own creations to fuel their guardians.
    I don't think that's so weird. It's just creating fuel, then burning in the sick fires of the guardians. And since the Troll and Human universes are the only ones used in the Green Sun this is moot anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinFoster View Post
    This is Homestuck we're talking. A webcomic that eats paradoxes for breakfast with a side of impossibility. And that's not even including the weird time shit. I doubt the end of the universe would keep a good story down.

  24. #149
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    If the purpose of the game is the simple procreation of universes, killing it's own spawn doesn't seem like the productive thing to do, unless the game is rigged to fuel LE, in which case it isn't just amoral.

  25. #150

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    The green sun fuels an integral part of the game. If the green sun never came into existence, that WOULD be a paradox, and we all know that paradox space hates paradoxes (that sounds so silly when put like that).

    goddamn consistent time travel ruins free will.

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