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Thread: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

  1. #151
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    But then that's just more proof that the game is not amoral, if it doesn't simply work as a reproductory system. Creating a fuel source out of three universes seems like a planned thing, and if it's planned there must be a planner in there. If it's LE then the game is more of a universe farm for him since he eats them.

  2. #152
    Just a wolfram., call me Wess Wessolf27's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    God, must you make this personal everytime someone contradicts what you think? I'm obviously making this up, it's a theory, and there's no way it's true since Hussie isn't going so much for the gray moralities and more for the completely white, completely black. (With this I mean He's isn't going to throw a "Skaia is evil" at this point in the story)

    I'm not saying the trolls don't deserve another try, I'm just saying that I think this second chance came with a very steep price. The old gods (former players) were erased with that universe and the game now could get a First Guardian in.

    This is all speculation and it all falls apart if First Guardians are an universal constant. I just think they are not because they are fueled by the green sun, which is outright called an anomaly.

    Also, those trolls were never told what the "Ultimate Prize" was, they hadn't won the game. They didn't even know what they were killing themselves for.
    First, I'm just stating what has already been talked about in the story. If you believe that my attacks are personal, I apologize, but I am not attacking the argument simply because they irk or annoy me. I simply wish to point out certain details that might need to be elaborated upon as there are several points stated about the session that do not automatically point to the idea that breaking or destroying SBURB is something that can be simply done by destroying all physical trace of it within the universe.

    Second, never has it been stated that Skaia is good or evil. Skaia is a system to create universes. It is amoral, not immoral. The moment you put a tag on whether or not SBURB is good or evil you're implying that the whole system somehow has recognition of morals and values.

    Third, I have to agree that First Guardians may be an anomaly which might not be necessary for the planet which hosts the game.
    EDIT: Never mind, seems like First Guardians are a constant.

    However I would like to point out certain things:
    1) The First Guardian is made by a combination of two things: The First Guardian Code and another object. The First Guardian Code did not come from anyone but from the players who have experienced some traumatic event in their lives.
    2) Lord English presents himself as a series of unfortunate events, as glitches in the system of both Skaia and the universe. It's been stated there. Lord English was already there the moment that the pre-scratch trolls were playing the game, and direct or indirect, he was the one to make it so that the pre-scratch trolls wouldn't be the ones to perform the ectobiology, and because of this error, the incipisphere recognized a major paradox which made all their actions seem contradictory: "If these were not the set of trolls to create themselves through ectobiology, how are they existing right now?"

    This then forces the pre-scratch trolls to perform the Scratch that would be necessary to give them another chance. Lord English then indirectly tampers with the session through Doc Scratch, orchestrating the events of his creation.
    a) Doc Scratch enters the post-scratch trolls' universe via meteor and lets out Glob'golyb into Alternia
    b) Aradia prototypes a frog, causing the Black Queen to step down. She was given a proposal by Doc Scratch to still be able to fulfill her role of universe destruction by making her create him through a Cueball (stated to be a seed for the creation of Lord English and can be said to be the cause for Lord English's influence.) and Lil' Cal. Furthermore, along with the FG codes that the trolls had sent, there was one more code which came from a doomed universe where all the trolls were killed by Gamzee. She fulfills this by becoming Snowman.
    c) Karkat accidentally causing the cancer that would show up in the kids' session as a series of unfortunate events on their side,
    d) Gamzee creating Lil' Cal in Dave's tower which itself was caused by Dave sending an ICP video to him because Betty Crocker/The Condesce (who works with Lord English) sent him such a video.
    e) Thus causing the whole of the kids' session to become terminally doomed to failure: (I.E. Jade's present landing in the wrong hands, Rose finding Jaspers dead on the shore causing her to write the code for Bec's creation, Vriska's interference with everything: All these served to cause the creation of Bec Noir. Whose presence disrupted the normal flow of the game.)
    f) Because the universe believes that the session is doomed, it creates the Tumor that destroys doomed universes that aren't supposed to exist.
    g) The kids then excise the Tumor from the session, hoping to use it against the Green Sun, but in fact created the Green Sun because of Doc Scratch's manipulation. At the same moment, Spades Slick kills Snowman in the troll's universe while Bec Noir destroys the Kids' Universe.
    h) Lord English grew out of Doc Scratch's body. He takes both the Handmaid and the Condesce to stir up strife in both the post-scratch Trolls' universe and the post-scratch kids' universe respectively.

    So Skaia was never directly the cause of the shit the kids and the trolls had to go through. A glitch in the system had caused Skaia to act in a way that it shouldn't have and indirectly created Lord English. Sure, the pre-scratch trolls made a bargain with Echidna, but it wasn't because of her nor was it because of their own capabilities that they had to Scratch their session and let someone like Doc Scratch in. Those events have been manipulated by Lord English and therefore can't be blamed for SBURB being responsible for any planet's misfortune.

    So yeah, Skaia is at fault, but not in the way that it directly was the cause of the misfortunes. And First Guardians aren't exactly the cause for the misfortune that befalls either the planet.
    Last edited by Wessolf27; 12-09-2011 at 03:53 AM.

  3. #153
    volcanicRage's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Actually the tumor is a paradox too, since it holds within itself the two universes while being inside one of them. The two universes then explode in the same place creating the green sun. The game using the explosion of an universe to destroy the same universe seems highly unlikely, there had to be an actual act that made that universe explode, that's Jack Noir's Red Miles. The tumor was meant to create the green sun the whole time.

    Also, When I said Skaia I meant Skaianet, not the ball of unlimited imagination, the company that distributes the game.

    And on the "making this personal" note, it wasn't because you contradicted me it was because you clearly said "You're making this up". You've also been belittling that safetyboots guy in the same manner.

    The green sun looks like a dangerous power source. Causing cancers to appear in new universes doesn't seem like a good way to ensure continuous reproduction.

    If i had to play the game, I'd do the same as safetyboots, Look for a way to fix it or die trying, there would really be no point in creating universes until one just glitched out and made stuff like LE to happen.
    Last edited by volcanicRage; 12-09-2011 at 04:40 AM.

  4. #154
    The Revolution has Begun! Oblivion's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    Actually the tumor is a paradox too, since it holds within itself the two universes while being inside one of them.
    Technically not. It never entered the kids' universe. It originated within their Incipisphere - a separate universe from their one of origin - then traveled to the Furthest Ring, which is outside of normal paradox space and thus all universes.

    The problem I have with the whole "fight or die trying" is that without a reasonable course of success it pretty much guarantees a waste of your effort. It's kind of like saying "I want to be President when I grow up". You have to have a plan. You have to start in high school or earlier, learning the way government and politics work; you have to go into college for the right kind(s) of degree(s), you have to get enough people on your side to get involved in first the lower rungs and then the higher rungs of local and/or state politics, you need to decide what your positions are and where you're willing to compromise versus where you have to stand firm, you have to find and make alliances and work on marginalizing your opposition, and a whole horde of other things. Without some kind of plan, the chances that you'll haphazardly manage to stumble into all the proper measures is pretty much nil. A wasted effort with no results, which is worth what?

    Again, I'm all for the idea if it can be reasonably executed. That's what I meant by saying I'm here to challenge. I'm trying to make you think about your suggestion. I'm trying to make it more than just an idealistic dream. I'm pushing you to solve the issue of turning a wish into a reality. Because idealism is nice, but without a workable plan of action it just ends in a bunch of dead idealists.

  5. #155
    Just a wolfram., call me Wess Wessolf27's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oblivion View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    Actually the tumor is a paradox too, since it holds within itself the two universes while being inside one of them.
    Technically not. It never entered the kids' universe. It originated within their Incipisphere - a separate universe from their one of origin - then traveled to the Furthest Ring, which is outside of normal paradox space and thus all universes.

    The problem I have with the whole "fight or die trying" is that without a reasonable course of success it pretty much guarantees a waste of your effort. It's kind of like saying "I want to be President when I grow up". You have to have a plan. You have to start in high school or earlier, learning the way government and politics work; you have to go into college for the right kind(s) of degree(s), you have to get enough people on your side to get involved in first the lower rungs and then the higher rungs of local and/or state politics, you need to decide what your positions are and where you're willing to compromise versus where you have to stand firm, you have to find and make alliances and work on marginalizing your opposition, and a whole horde of other things. Without some kind of plan, the chances that you'll haphazardly manage to stumble into all the proper measures is pretty much nil. A wasted effort with no results, which is worth what?

    Again, I'm all for the idea if it can be reasonably executed. That's what I meant by saying I'm here to challenge. I'm trying to make you think about your suggestion. I'm trying to make it more than just an idealistic dream. I'm pushing you to solve the issue of turning a wish into a reality. Because idealism is nice, but without a workable plan of action it just ends in a bunch of dead idealists.
    Yeah, pretty much supporting this idea as well. It's not that we don't wish your plan to work out, but if you don't have a good plan for what you're thinking about then all that happens is something much worse. This was what I was getting at about Rose. It's not the trust issue, it's the blindly going around breaking the game issue with no plan. And that didn't do good for any of them, much less Rose.

  6. #156

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessolf27 View Post
    So unless you don't have a good idea on how you're supposed to break the game, how can you say that you can stop it? Besides, just try to wait it out. Hussie might eventually show us one way of breaking the game. All right?
    I would try to stop the reckoning first thing. I would then try to get the ectobabies and the frong temple to earth through creative use of sendification devices. Then make Bilious Slick and birth a universe.

  7. #157
    volcanicRage's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Well then what? Should I take lessons in ectobiology before going into the game to modify the frog? Should I study how to change the programming in a skaianet station? What you ask of me is impossible, I can only aspire to try my best. You aren't told you'll be going into the game before you do, and there's no way the game would tell you what that entails even if you had prophetic dreams through prospit.

    I don't want to go in a tangent about preparation with an example in politics, much less in presidency, since there's a lot of power chains in there that you can't clearly see.

    Also, Aranfan, the point isn't to just save my planet, my planet's paradoxically doomed, but if i can fix the frog then maybe the next universe won't have a reckoning.
    Last edited by volcanicRage; 12-09-2011 at 11:27 AM.

  8. #158
    Mage of Rage MegaRock35's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nokob View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wessolf27 View Post
    It's never stated that the Genesis Frog was found on Earth, there's no evidence to point that fact. It existed at a very small point of time, and yes, we were able to see it, but who is to say that the Frog wasn't carried to Earth with the meteor containing the Frog Temple?
    In fact, the frog is sendificated to Earth. So yeah, we have no idea where it came from.
    *pops in*
    That wasn't the Genesis Frog, that was just the last frog needed to complete the Genesis Frog's genetic sequence.

    As you were.
    *pops out*

  9. #159

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by volcanicRage View Post
    Also, Aranfan, the point isn't to just save my planet, my planet's paradoxically doomed, but if i can fix the frog then maybe the next universe won't have a reckoning.
    Actually, until the meteors start hitting, my "home" planet isn't predestined to be doomed. Nothing is inevitable until it happens, it just that in Homestuck things can be in the process of happening before they start. Even if there is a meteor bearing down on me that my Cruxtruder tracks, it might be possible to kill the Black King before the Reckoning and get the White King to use the BK's staff to start a mini-reckoning that only has the bare minimum of meteors.

    I very much doubt that there's a way to figure out what the genetic code will result in before Bilious Slick is born, Karkat didn't realize about the cancer until later after all. I'm just trying to figure out how to save my home nation/planet in my session.

  10. #160
    volcanicRage's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    If saving your planet is the goal then you could just be the time kid, find all the skainet consoles, clone yourself repeatedly and do the grand lelouch on those keyboards to control the earth's portals.

  11. #161

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Of course, preventing the reckoning is impossible, as it is what brings the players and the frog temple (and with it the Sburb code) to the planet.
    And no, you can't just send "some" meteors. The temple is big, and the big meteors are sent last, so most of the planet would still be destroyed.
    Last edited by Conspicuous; 12-09-2011 at 04:03 PM.

  12. #162

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Conspicuous View Post
    Of course, preventing the reckoning is impossible, as it is what brings the players and the frog temple (and with it the Sburb code) to the planet.
    And no, you can't just send "some" meteors. The temple is big, and the big meteors are send last, so most of the planet would still be destroyed.
    Where is it said that you can't send "some" meteors? Where is it said that the babies and temple can't get to the planet through other means than meteor prortals (such as enlarged sendification devices)? Nowhere that I can tell.

    There are options damnit.

  13. #163
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Creating a new universe is not "winning." I believe that the Ultimate Prize (what you get at the end of the game) has something to do with bringing your planet back. Of course, winning is very, very hard, and you can easily kill yourself along with the rest of the universe of doing so...
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  14. #164
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Conspicuous View Post
    preventing the reckoning is impossible
    This is not entirely true. In fact, Hussie's formspring even admits that there could be a session that beats Derse in advance. However, let me point something out, something for those of you who bring out more reasonable arguments are not considering:

    Sburb is a very prepared game. The latest iteration is ready to accept players who will not enter via Reckoning, for example. As such, if it became aware of a set of players who somehow found out how the game worked beforehand and were preparing to stop it, a very simple solution is presented to it:

    Ensure that one or more of the Guardians has natural aptitudes in the departments of archaeology and computer programming, and that the only natural thing they'd do when confronted with the Frog Temple would be to code the game and release it en masse. You might be the designated player and the only one with a chance of surviving, but that doesn't mean there can't be a few failed Incipispheres out there that get just far enough to trigger the Reckoning and thus devastate your planet anyway.

    This is the problem. You are dealing with a program that knew it would have to have one of its players lose their internet connection, so it seeded the game's leader in the cruelest month of the year so there could be a thunderstorm to debilitate Rose. Yes, you can make plans. You can make really good plans. But Skaia and your Guardians have a head start, and they seem to be pretty good at facilitating things to go down a certain way. You're one person or at best a united front of the younger half of the meteor-borne (or however you arrived on Earth). But that's it.
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    The Revolution has Begun! Oblivion's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by safetyboots View Post
    Excuse me. For my own amusement, I will adopt a ridiculous manner. Bear with me.

    <snip>

    That is all! I hope this ends questionnaires, sexual harassment, and stupid attempts to pin ridiculous metaphors and absurd scenarios!
    Your passive aggressive assault stopped being amusing five pages ago.

    That said, that was what I was looking for. My inquiry is complete, thank you at freaking last. I'll take the time to look through it in more detail and pick at it and see how sturdy it turns out when I'm not leaving the house in fifteen minutes.

  16. #166
    Heir of Blood Legendary's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Of course, you don't at all. Let's start from the beginning.

    Attempting to find a way to excise Sburb from the reproductive process at all will almost certainly end in failure. Yes, you can make bad frogs. But I suspect that Skaia will simply reject a frog without the Sburb DNA. So immediately you're entering a universe defined on its terms.

    And then of course you hit problem #2: Space is big. [H2G2 reference]

    Let's say your plan is to interfere with any sessions in this universe. Well, just for starters we don't know if the civilization of a winning team does have a session. It may be that part of the reward is getting a planet that will stick around nicely as long as you don't fuck up and the universe doesn't end. So, you may have to look around.

    Ten to one, Sburb won't fuck with intelligent civilizations you discover, and only hit the ones you'll never find. We have no statement that every species plays (and in fact it's possible that none of the subjugated trollverse aliens did!). They all do get First Guardians, but there's ways to deliver them without a session being necessarily involved. So...

    What exactly do you do in the new universe?
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  17. #167
    volcanicRage's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    I believe that's why when in the original session where the ancestors played the game they came form a peaceful race, because they had the former players watching over their civilization.

  18. #168
    The Revolution has Begun! Oblivion's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by safetyboots View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Oblivion View Post
    Your passive aggressive assault stopped being amusing five pages ago.
    GA: It Seems Friendship For Some Humans Is A Basic Aggregation Of Shallow And Insincere Hostilities
    ... well played, I actually laughed. One point for you sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oblivion View Post
    I'll take the time to look through it in more detail and pick at it and see how sturdy it turns out when I'm not leaving the house in fifteen minutes.
    GODDAMMIT! No! Why!? We are supposed to be on the same team!
    If we are on the same team, all the more reason to check the more thoroughly for mistakes or oversights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legendary View Post
    Of course, you don't at all.
    I do not hate you or Oblivion. None of you can be my Kismesis. I am really sorry.
    Gorrammit. Two points. Again, well played.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legendary View Post
    What exactly do you do in the new universe?
    You are projecting the trolls failure into our scenario.

    The ultimate reward! If we win, we will be gods! Real gods! Anyway, we who control the creation of the new universe!
    Now I'm curious where you get the advancement from "Godtier players" - who are very powerful and immortal, but not truly deific, even on the level of First Guardians, save possibly Dogtier Jade - to "Real Gods".

    Anyway, will be getting to that analysis later. Have a party to be at, catch you all later.

  19. #169
    Heir of Blood Legendary's Avatar
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by safetyboots View Post
    Good question. I do not know how resourceful we can get through the game and after it, nor to what extent we control the creation of little Bilious Slick. However, having your homeworld wrecked and obtaining a hangout in a new and unknown universe does not seems like a good prize, much less the ultimate.
    That does not indicate omniscience or omnipotence. The ultimate reward might just be a chance to talk to Skaia/whatever runs the show for Skaia before entering a new universe.

    That is a huge assumption.
    Not especially. Skaia planned things in such a way to ensure a thunder storm in a chaotic system that would be permanently influenced by the interference. It is clearly quite good at what it is.

    Unless the purpose of creating new universes is to feed Lord English, why the game did not stop the trolls interference?
    They needed to make the Green Sun. That's a thing that had to happen. Thus, the trolls needed to fuck with the kids, and the kids with the trolls.

    It can actually plan with such precision and anticipation? Even so, it still could not prevent the emergence of Bec Noir and Lord English.
    Judging by the fact that entities from four different universes helped Jack ascend into Bec Noir, it seems to have wanted him to exist. And we do not know English's backstory or what benefits Skaia saw in letting him exist, if any. But we do know he is sanctioned by the Horrorterrors and Skaia, so that's cool. And of course, as little details like the thunderstorm show, Skaia is quite good at predicting things. It just needs to know how you'll behave in a new universe, and then it doesn't have to influence anywhere you end up going.

    Anyway, the game is sentient or controlled directly by Horrorterrors and Skaia?
    The game is Skaia.
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  20. #170

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by safetyboots View Post
    The reckoning is not what drives or allows the entry to the game.
    But it is.

    Without the Reckoning, there'd be no evidence of the Paradox Space's existence brought into the Universe (the frog temples, the code that can be extracted from it), so there'd be no way to leave the Universe into Paradox Space.

    And without the Reckoning, there'd be no players. Regardless of alternate sessions and their success (and it's implied they don't have it), the actually important session is the one where the players are created, and later seeded into the Universe via the Reckoning.

    So yeah. Sburb is a game that fully depends on the Reckoning to exist, and you can know a Universe is destined to host a Sburb session if you stumble upon either of the Frog Temples (because that means there'll be a Reckoning).


    Also, this topic made me realize something: When* the Trolls won the game, and created a Universe, they weren't gods (save for the exception: Vriska). And even if they were supposed to be granted an entry to the Universe, they were barred from entry by destiny.

    Maybe the very fact that they weren't all gods foreshadowed their failure? I mean, how can you enter a Universe to look over it as a god, if you're not a god yourself?



  21. #171
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by safetyboots View Post
    This assumption makes sense only if the whole process exists to feed Lord English.
    NO IT DOESN'T. Bec Noir needed to be a thing to cause the Green Sun, which is part of Skaia's modus operandi.

    Anyway, if I remember correctly, the Horrorterrors cried for help. Not that this means much coming from compulsive mindfuckers.
    It doesn't because we don't know what's eating them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legendary View Post
    The game is Skaia.
    [citation needed][/QUOTE]

    FAA: a bargain struck between what skaia kn0ws already and what the g0ds demand up fr0nt

    This suggests that Skaia represents itself and its interests in terms of the game.
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  22. #172

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by safetyboots View Post
    This assumption makes sense only if the whole process exists to feed Lord English.
    Well, it wouldn't be so far-fetched. Paradox Space is very much an anomalous place where anomalous things happen, such as paradox clones, mystical powers, and universe-resetting mechanisms.

    And said universe-resetting mechanisms are apparently crucial for LE's travel between Universes. He can't enter an Universe unless the Scratch happens, because otherwise his facilitator doesn't get to exist, therefore the preparations to his arrival don't get to happen.

    What if Lord English is the creator of Sburb? What if Sburb is just some sort of machine to make him food? A machine that depends on a God of the Furthest Ring to be forced into a scratched Universe, where it will die?

    What if that's the way the Gods of the Furthest Ring are dying? What if that's the reason for them to cry for help?

  23. #173

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by safetyboots View Post
    The reckoning is not what drives or allows the entry to the game.
    But it is.

    Without the Reckoning, there'd be no evidence of the Paradox Space's existence brought into the Universe (the frog temples, the code that can be extracted from it), so there'd be no way to leave the Universe into Paradox Space.

    And without the Reckoning, there'd be no players. Regardless of alternate sessions and their success (and it's implied they don't have it), the actually important session is the one where the players are created, and later seeded into the Universe via the Reckoning.

    So yeah. Sburb is a game that fully depends on the Reckoning to exist, and you can know a Universe is destined to host a Sburb session if you stumble upon either of the Frog Temples (because that means there'll be a Reckoning).
    Explain how Sendification devices can't do all these things. The Reckoning isn't what does the things you descibe, Skaia's defense portals do them. The Reckoning is just sending the Veil at Skaia, it's the defense portals that cause the multiversal interactions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legendary View Post
    That is a huge assumption.
    Not especially. Skaia planned things in such a way to ensure a thunder storm in a chaotic system that would be permanently influenced by the interference. It is clearly quite good at what it is.
    Teleological nonsense. Skaia, in your framework, given it's abilility to plan, is evil. Any system able to plan that demands the death of a sapient species in order to birth a universe instead of birthing the universe without sacrificing a sapient species is evil. Escpecially given that the death of the sapient species in question does not seem at all necessary to the process of creating Bilious Slick.


    In a chaotic system, the chaos only emerges from differences in the initial conditions. The stable timeloops don't have such differences in initial conditions. No planning capacity is needed to explain how Rose loses her connection in at the same point in every iteration of the Reckoning loop, because the variables never change except in "doomed" spin-off universes.

  24. #174
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    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Legendary View Post
    Skaia planned things in such a way to ensure a thunder storm in a chaotic system that would be permanently influenced by the interference.
    Wow, what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Legendary View Post
    FAA: a bargain struck between what skaia kn0ws already and what the g0ds demand up fr0nt

    This suggests that Skaia represents itself and its interests in terms of the game.
    Or that Aradia was talking figuratively. And she's hardly all-knowing, though she can seem like it sometimes; she could simply be wrong. Anyway, she says "what Skaia knows already", which seems like it could simply be referring to its clouds and their prophetic nature.

  25. #175

    Re: The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

    Interesting topic, and even more interesting discussion.

    Just adding more onto the "Reckoning" argument (or perhaps rewording it, my apologies if it doesn't add anything to the discussion):
    -> Reckoning occurs
    -> Meteors fall towards Skaia, causing the planet to open defense portals that happen to be pointed towards the homeplanet for at least a partially good reason
    -> Meteors go through portal and are sent backwards and forwards through time to deliver: Frog Temple + the game coding, and the players themselves (and if it is a session made to be scratched, then the players' guardians as well, assuming that not all sessions require scratching).
    ^Adding onto the time thing, assuming from previous discussions that the Frog Temple is on a large meteor and is one of the last to be sent, it can easily be sent billions of years before sentient life. However at that point all the other meteors have gone through as well, through various points in time, seeming to concentrate more (likely?) after the players begin playing.

    As others have said multiple times, it is impossible - or very, very unrecommended - to stop the Reckoning by defeating Derse, taking away the Scepter, etc etc. Why?
    --> Game components would never have existed, therefore you have created a paradox by removing the game you exist in now, forcing you into a doomed timeline that will be erased - and all of its contents erased - no matter what
    --> Players would have never existed, and same reasoning with game components apply here.
    As an extra note to the above, we have seen what happens when you do not send back the players at the very least. In a doomed timeline, John had been killed before doing his ectobiology thing. Rose and Dave were still in the game, but now they were never supposed to exist, and they were killed (Rose was, at least; Davesprite still has a doomed label on him)
    --> Players would have no real motivation to go into the game. Keep in mind that this game, and the universe, really really wants to reproduce. What would force players to go into the game? Impending death seems to be the choice here. Therefore, there has to be at least one meteor targeting the players' homes - and assuming one large enough or fast enough that the player can't just run away (which would also send everyone into a doomed timeline, since you did not enter the game when you were supposed to).

    Basically, stopping the Reckoning creates paradoxes, meaning that you just doomed yourself and your fellow players. The Alpha timeline will not allow you to proceed in any Beta timelines and automatically arranges your death no matter what. Furthermore you may never realize that the doomed timeline ever existed, unless your Time player goes back to warn them, you have a feature like Trollian to track timelines (and it is more likely that only the creators of the universe have access to this particular feature, as even the trolls did not have timelines of one another), or something about your Dreamself, and basically a whole lot more time shenanigans. On the other hand, warning past selves not to do something may doom them before they got the chance to even get to the decision that started this fun time of doom. Pretty much there's a lot of reliance on the Hero of Time to make sure people aren't dooming themselves left and right.

    That was somewhat of a tangent, I suppose. It also shows just how strong Skaia (or the game, whichever you would like to refer to) can control its players. Yes, perhaps you do have some freedom and you just need to do something along these lines and not do this this and this. Or perhaps its controlling every aspect that you do, by dooming everything it doesn't like. And because of that fact, you can't fight the game, because it'll just write you off as doomed and then nothing will have come out of it.

    It appears that the only real way to "fight" the game is to not play it.

    Assuming that the meteors are triggered by the game.

    However, unless the universe is destined to have no session at all, then the game creates the meteors to create itself. If you have a Frog Temple on your world, you are destined (or cursed) to play the game. Not you as an individual, but someone on your planet must play, because someone must have gone into the game to play to have the Reckoning begin and send back the Frog Temple to make the game

    And then we see just how much trouble this game likes to make.

    Pretty much, if you want to stop the game, you better go along with it. Then, when you're breeding the Genesis Frog, remove the "destruction aspect" of the coding, if possible. If it is possible to do that without causing the Frog to become infertile, then by all means, do it. This doesn't mean that all future Genesis Frogs will be like that, as future players may not take it out, or don't know what they are doing. Besides, all the other universes with sessions may create Frogs with the Reckoning.

    Futility is a very strong theme in Homestuck, as it seems.

    I still stand on the "Skaia/the game is amoral" aspect of this, though perhaps this post may make others ponder more about this - if I haven't just repeated what everyone else has said (again, my apologies if this is so).

    Also, if you need clarification, I'll be happy to give it as best as I can.

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