The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

[Powerhouse]

Ah, it would appear that I have made a silly mistake - on par with forgetting the nuclear warhead for a missile. Yes, the level of silly here is actually that high.
I notice that you have absolved Skaia of blame, and rightly so - it is a construct of Sburb, is it not? And the argument is about Sburb.

I'll elaborate, just bite...

[obolisk0430]

I figure that at least 1 chess varient exists in almost every universe, and is based off of Skaia. As for destroying the planet, Skaia's only defense against the Reckoning (which happens in every succesful session as far as we know) are the defence portals, and the defence portals HAVE to send the meteors at the host planet. Again, I don't see this as intentional design.

[Wessolf27]

It doesn't matter anymore.



Know this, however. I would desperately look for a way out. In case of failure, I reiterate what I said earlier in this discussion. I would simply make the impossible to completely nullify Reality.

So if you will do everything you can to nullify reality, then what would even be the point of living? Everything would be dead, and the values that people hold in high regard would be absurd, and in everything else, everything you would do, even the act of destroying reality would have become pointless for the very fact that you did so. This might seem like a romantic idea, but I believe that the continued existence of any reality would give a chance for breaking the cycle, even if it might not be from this specific universe.

The Alpha timeline might be fixed to predestination regardless of how things would have happened, but I believe that it's not limited to simply one path, but a small number of paths with somewhat different possibilities that can still exist. If reality is destroyed then there will be no possible chance for the act of subverting SBURB to happen. Along with that, the possibility of naturally occuring void sessions mean that the planet was never destroyed by meteors in the first place. Granted, something else might have done so, but I believe that presents a fighting chance, don't you think?

Edit: Also, if things might work out the way they could, maybe pumpkins are the solution (as stated in the Discussion Thread) they might be the key to removing that pesky predestination that happens all throughout SBURB.

[Wessolf27]

What's the point of living if everything is determined? Regardless, I'm aware of the futility of nullifying Reality. That's just me entering into despair and giving up, then throwing a fit of cosmic proportions.


I was referring to the worst possible case. Anyway, yeah. I share the same belief.

The thing is, from what's being discussed at the moment, it seems more like there are a finite amount of choices that are possible, it's not free from determinism, but it's not fixed either, it simply means that there are other possibilities that would allow for a different stance in reality, if there had been a chance for Vriska to decide to back down, then the alpha timeline would permit that as to be the best possible outcome. But it wasn't in Vriska's personality to do so. In the same way, if there is something that would allow SBURB to minimize damages, then perhaps it would choose that as the best possible course, but as of now, it doesn't seem like there was a choice. The meteors might have ultimately been the only way for SBURB to send its players and whatever other objects into the universe as it were. If there had been another possible method of transporting them without the use of meteors, then perhaps that would have allowed for a different timeline to occur. Of course, the consoles were locked into specific locations as it were, but who knows? Perhaps there actually was a way to hack into those consoles and transport those babies and exiles into the planet without utterly destroying it.

[Kuyan J]

Also, even IF* the 'host' planet is 'stoned to death', as you so gracefully put it, it is still plausible that other civilisations within that universe will survive past the Reckoning, so that's not quite the same.

I think the analogy works better if the civilisations, rather than the universes, are compared to babies. I assumed that was what everyone was doing.

Birth: creation of a civilisation via creation of it's universe.
Existence of the baby: existence of the civilisation.
Death: destruction of a civilisation.

The universes are valuable mainly because they contain civilisations.

***

Additionally, a few people have pointed out that the game doesn't require a reconing due to void sessions (or is it null?) The problem with this is that by not prototyping, you prevent the battlefield from evolving, which prevents the new universe from being made. The only reason this isn't an issue for the kids is that Jade is bringing their battlefield with them.

It may not be possible (normally) to create a universe without killing a civilisation. But it's possible to play SBurb without killing a civilisation, thus allowing the civilisation to live on past SBurb.

***

I certainly think players who prototype Skaia before they find out what that will do should try to win the game. But supposing players know all this before they begin, should they prototype? I think it's much better not to, given all the people it will kill. But safetyboots has pointed out some advantages.

If it remains limited to it's universe, your civilisation will inevitably end eventually. Even if they avoid every other potential cause of destruction, the heat death (or possibly death from something else) of the universe will destroy your civilisation and leave no trace.

If, on the other hand, you play SBurb and win, you will enter the new universe as gods. You may be able to build a civilisation, or even more than one in the image of your old civilisation. And some of these may eventually win SBurb, and so continue the cycle ad infinitum.

You will have killed everyone in your civilisation for a chance of making the legacy of a few of them- some of the neighbours, friends, ancestors, and celebrities who influenced you- immortal.

I don't think it would be worth it. What do you think?

Actually, I'd say the best choice is to not prototype, but instead try to find some other way for the civilisation to escape it's universe. Such as that thing in WV's base.

[Powerhouse]

And now time to render several ongoing arguments null.
We've said that Skaia is innocent, correct? The argument has gone onto Sburb itself, as the initial point (Sburb is irredeemably evil) has dictated.

If the creator of Skaia is evil, Skaia is not necessarily evil.

If the creator of Sburb is evil, Sburb is not necessarily evil.

Hell, Sburb's as much a construct as Skaia is- the evil one, if there is one, is the CREATOR of Sburb. Everybody go home.

[obolisk0430]

Again, I don't think that in the HS universe there is any creater of Sburb. I think it's something that's allways existed. The only other explenation for this would be if it, along with existence as we understand it, was created by some sort of creature from BEYOND the Furthest Ring, as the Furthest Ring itself seems to be influenced by Sburb. However, if this is the case, then the creator would be so alian that it could not be defined with simple words such as good and evil.

[Wessolf27]

It really needs to be said that the Universe in Homestuck should really be treated as a sort of biological organism. It's been mentioned almost time and again that many of its functions, even time-space wise are related to some biological function that is present within everyone else, Skaia and SBURB I believe are simply amoral. For one thing, I think after pondering it for a while, the whole thing about Skaia, the meteors reaching the home planets, the battlefield, seem to act more like the reproductive system, sperm-egg wise. The players are essentially the ones that provide the codes that would enable the creation the new universe and Skaia provides the other half of the codes, as well as the protective environment that allows the Universe Frog to grow, the session then is the fertilized egg that allows for the growth of the universe through the multiple acts of prototyping.

I do not believe that Skaia or SBURB are inherently evil simply because it must do its functions. The sperm would always pierce the egg so that it may fertilize it, the same way that Skaia must seed the planet with its players who would necessitate the creation of the universe.

Along with this, if the Creator of SBURB truly is evil (if there was one in the first place), then we might have to first think about what could have been the reason for creating it in the first place. It could very well be that for the Creator of the orginal S___B game, their universe was nearing its Heat Death, and so after all other attempts, probably created SBURB as a last ditch attempt, or even a first-ditch attempt in order for them to find a method of escape.

Of course, the whole thing can just as much be unlikely, but if anything else, a large number of those who created SBURB seem unwitting at what they might entail. And, even with this hypothesis, we can never truly know whether or not the creator of SBURB truly is evil or not, if it really was an intentional act of destroying the civilization living on the planet or an unintended but crucial necessity for the creation of the new universe.

In the end, it's not a physical construct, but a biological one, and we probably need to think of the universe as a living being rather than simply the void that our planets float in, at least in the context of Homestuck.

[Powerhouse]

Weren't we already operating on the assumption that the universe is a frog here? I seem to recall someone making the connection between the hundreds of Incipispheres and the Genesis Frogs that spawn them some time ago.

[Wessolf27]

Weren't we already operating on the assumption that the universe is a frog here? I seem to recall someone making the connection between the hundreds of Incipispheres and the Genesis Frogs that spawn them some time ago.

The thing is, we're treating the reproductive system of the frog as an artificial construct rather than a reproductive organ that is part and parcel of the universe.

[Ryandoesstuff]

It should send the asteroids with the temple and babies to the planet, and the rest of the reckoning that it can send through portals away from the planet. I'm not seeing any reason why it can't have most of the portals point away from the planet, god knows theres enough time fuckery to justify that kind of space fuckery, it's not a question of all or nothing. Hell, you don't even technically need the reckoning as far as I can tell, just sendificate the babies and temple.

Alternatively, if the planet must take the hit for some reason, don't concentrate the reckoning to the point where it will kill out sapient life. Spread it out, we already know that the frog temple hits the planet aeons before any other, one a year instead of the all at once we got would be easily survivable.

Just in case nobody points this out, John's meteor hit a Better Crocker facility, did it not? That would be killing everybody inside that building without warning. Complaining that pointing all the portals towards Earth is unjust is also sort of wrong. It is possible that those meteors will end up killing someone/something else! Skaia must send the meteors towards the planet to trigger the entry of players.

I'm sorry, but saying that it's OK to kill a factory filled with people to get one person, but it's not OK to kill a bunch more people for the possibility of (SEVERAL!) new universes is kind of hypocritical. It's sort of the same thing on a magnified scale, except that it has a high likelihood to produce (possibly several!) new universes.

That said, I don't have much to add to this discussion. It's really interesting, though!

I am not a player and have no interest in discussing possibilities. Anyway, how a discussion about my outlandish ideas about turning the game in my favor will add something to this discussion? No, really. I want to know.


Bold statement. Anything to back it up?

I'm not sure if safetyboots is gone yet, I'm still going through the pages, but this is really infuriating. "Bold statement. Anything to back it up?"

I can't stand this. You were saying that you planned on saving what you could, changing the game and things to that effect, as much as it pains me to remember. You gave NO evidence to support your claim that these were things that were even possible. Ok I'm done wasting my time on people who pick one line from someone's argument at a time and disregards everything that doesn't work entirely in his favour.

[CSJ]

John's meteor hit a Better Crocker facility, did it not? That would be killing everybody inside that building without warning. Complaining that pointing all the portals towards Earth is unjust is also sort of wrong. It is possible that those meteors will end up killing someone/something else! Skaia must send the meteors towards the planet to trigger the entry of players.

The meteors may not be the only option when it comes to the entry of the players. There's always the possibility of the First Guardian simply manipulating the players into the game as a necessity of their own existence and in Void sessions, the Reckoning never happens, despite the eventual and inevitable entry of the players. Given that Earth is the only established planet with life in the Universe, to say that it's 'possible' that it will kill something left is somewhat irrelevant. Is the slim possibility of life existing off Earth AND said life being hit by meteors more important than the guaranteed loss of life on Earth?

I'm sorry, but saying that it's OK to kill a factory filled with people to get one person, but it's not OK to kill a bunch more people for the possibility of (SEVERAL!) new universes is kind of hypocritical. It's sort of the same thing on a magnified scale, except that it has a high likelihood to produce (possibly several!) new universes.

When you consider that the possibility of several new universes also comes with it the potential for perpetuation of suffering and the complete bastardisation of said civilizations, it is less morally justifiable. Besides, it is almsot certainly possible for an alternative means of transport to meteors existing, which would avert the whole situation in the first place.

In the end, it's not a physical construct, but a biological one, and we probably need to think of the universe as a living being rather than simply the void that our planets float in, at least in the context of Homestuck.

And as a living and seemingly omniscient entity, it may indeed be possible to apply concepts like ethics and morality to its actions - even if such concepts may not be easily related to the situation within the 'game'. This thread relies on the primary assumption that it is possible for 'Sburb' to be 'good' or 'evil'. If this assumption is false, then this thread may be irrelevant to Homestuck. But if it is at all possible that the assumption is true, then it remains something to be given careful consideration, even if only hypothetically.

[Wessolf27]

The meteors may not be the only option when it comes to the entry of the players. There's always the possibility of the First Guardian simply manipulating the players into the game as a necessity of their own existence and in Void sessions, the Reckoning never happens, despite the eventual and inevitable entry of the players. Given that Earth is the only established planet with life in the Universe, to say that it's 'possible' that it will kill something left is somewhat irrelevant. Is the slim possibility of life existing off Earth AND said life being hit by meteors more important than the guaranteed loss of life on Earth?

There's a few problems however...

1) Despite saying that Void sessions still have their players, and that there isn't a reckoning to send the babies, void sessions still do have those player and frog temple meteors sent, but they only do so because of Scratch-shenanigans. The meteors are going to be sent because there was still one instance of a session that had done so, and that would have been the more successful, not-Void session
2) As much as we have seen FG powers work within the session, there doesn't seem to be any good evidence that having FG powers would enable the First Guardian to send the players into their home universe without the use of a meteor. The only cross-dimensional travel/portal that they seem to have access to is the Green Sun, but that seems to be it. Jade mentions that First Guardians can only teleport within their universe, but not exactly something like from a session into a universe since that probably takes much more complex spacetime shenanigans.

It's also been repeatedly shown in the flashes I think. Whenever Bec, Jade or any of the other FG powered individuals teleport or flash, they usually display as the Green Sun, or some specific location within their universe/session nothing about Bec looking like a dog shaped portal within LoWaS while he was with Jade on Earth. When Doc Scratch teleported the Handmaid to the Battleship Condescension it was witihn the Alternian Universe. When Aradia teleported through Bec Noir, she ended up close to the Green Sun, which is what FGs normally have a tie to regardless of universes.

When you consider that the possibility of several new universes also comes with it the potential for perpetuation of suffering and the complete bastardisation of said civilizations, it is less morally justifiable. Besides, it is almsot certainly possible for an alternative means of transport to meteors existing, which would avert the whole situation in the first place.

The question is, would the universe that exists without a S___B truly be free from suffering? There are still a lot of things within said universe that could still F-up a civilization, a planet, or even the whole universe. There's also the matter that life isn't exactly life without knowing a bit of suffering. There's a reason as to why people experience suffering, and it helps them differentiate one thing from another. Without some sense of suffering, everything would be the same and life would be taken for granted, it would be meaningless and absurd. Life wouldn't be life at all even if you let it perpetuate without some idea of suffering. We wouldn't probably know what a good life even is if there wasn't some sort of basis of what exactly is a "bad life" in the first place.

The question then is still ethical. Would morals and ethics really matter in a world without suffering? When people experience no problems that they don't exactly think about creating something better? It's still something to think about.

Personally, and only in my opinion, a world without suffering is too utopian. It is too perfect and perfection does not leave room for diversification nor does it lead to a better understanding of anything as it remains static. People will only know one idea, and they do not have the ability to question what is right or what is wrong. A perfectly static world like that would be a world much worse than a world that would only have a finite amount of time to live before being used up for the creation of another universe, yet has the amount of freedom to solve problems in more than one way.

And as a living and seemingly omniscient entity, it may indeed be possible to apply concepts like ethics and morality to its actions - even if such concepts may not be easily related to the situation within the 'game'. This thread relies on the primary assumption that it is possible for 'Sburb' to be 'good' or 'evil'. If this assumption is false, then this thread may be irrelevant to Homestuck. But if it is at all possible that the assumption is true, then it remains something to be given careful consideration, even if only hypothetically.

You have a point there in that there is a chance that there isn't anything saying that SBURB cannot be good or evil. But as much as it is omniscient, does omniscience automatically qualify it to be sentient? There's still a lot we don't know about the nature of SBURB, the universe-both in and out of Homestuck-, and what could be the true cause for the destruction of a civilization. If anything, it seems to me that Skaia does all it can to revitalize the previous host planet from being a husk. It destroyed a civilization, but it always sends exiles to fix the planet so that it can flourish once more. The players are made as beings of a home planet solely so that they may understand what it means to live as one of those people, and as such, despite being separate from their gene pool, they still carry with them the traditions and beliefs of the old civilization to bring to the new. The dead are still able to exist (however "temporarily") in dream bubbles, and there has been good mention by Aradia herself that it is certainly possible for people other than players to exist within the worlds of the dream bubbles. The players are nourished to grow and to understand their roles in order to create a universe that would be properly managed. All of what Skaia does seem to suggest that despite the destruction of a civilization, it's trying to do whatever possible to ensure that the old universe isn't left with one civilization missing, and the new universe left unprotected to the whims of anything.

[Unclever title]

Weren't we already operating on the assumption that the universe is a frog here? I seem to recall someone making the connection between the hundreds of Incipispheres and the Genesis Frogs that spawn them some time ago.

That would be me, back on page 1.

The game represents a universe as a frog for a reason.

In Homestuck canon it seems like each universe acts like an organism, each sburb session is one of it's eggs. Intelligent civilizations are reproductive organs with the most successful representatives of the society succeeding in fertilization. Fertilization is entry into the medium, a large egg centered around skaia.

To incentivize these players to complete the process they are given the reward of continued existence in the new universe, as gods no less, should they be successful. The players are given challenges to ensure their maturation to godhood so that they can be helpful stewards of the next universe and the civilizations that arise therein.

The players create the next universe and nurture it, ensuring the perpetuation of existence.

It's not about good and evil. It's about creation and destruction. Order and entropy. It's survival of the fittest, evolution among a race of universes.

In short, no, Sburb and Skaia do not have your best interests at heart, they are concerned about much bigger things than any one individual or species. However, Skaia does look closely at certain chosen heroes as they pass the test to entry in the medium, they are ones to ensure the progeny of this universe as such Skaia wants them to succeed and wants to reward them.

The death of one's planet is a result of the nature of cosmic biology, not necessarily evil.

We're so used to considering civilization as the most important thing, which is because from out perspective it is very important. But to a genesis frog we're not much more than a sperm cell. From our own perspective we are quite alright with millions of sperm cells dying for the promise of MAYBE producing another human being. Why would a genesis frog be any different, even if sentient?

In fact, with neural connections stretching lightyears through space and eons through time, synapses more akin to cosmic strings than what goes on between our neurons, with thought processes potentially making up the fabric of physics as we know it and an imagination that perhaps actively shapes what we call destiny then a genesis frog is likely to have a sentience that makes ours look like a mere "Hello World" script and may not even recognize us as sentient, and thus may not recognize civilizations as a thing worth preserving individually but worth preserving as a whole so that it may be assured offspring and the continuation of existence as a whole.

[Wessolf27]

If anyone's still reading this, and if they've read the statement above. To the detractors who say that a civilization and her people, even individually are too important to be destroyed by Skaia or SBURB, I'd like to invite you to entertain a few questions:

If you had the possibility of reaching towards the Billious Slick who is the manifestation of your/our universe, how would you make it notice you and take you with much gravity in the first place?

Second, once you've found a way to make yourself known to it, how would you even bring up the notion of stopping Skaia's process of bringing the Reckoning when it would be vital to its reproduction?

Third, if the second fails, and you learn that the Reckoning itself is vital to the process of BS' reproduction, would you even be able to convince it to stop its reproduction, all for the sake of one civilization? Even at the cost of sending the universe, with its many other possible civilizations into a doomed timeline where paradox space can no longer support itself due to a time loop not being fulfilled?

[Powerhouse]

I don't actually think that the Genesis Frog is sentient- I seem to recall someone in-comic stating that it's not, or something along those lines. Also, Paradox Space. Right now I can't think of any ways that Paradox Space forces Sburb's hand, because it seems that Sburb sets it up itself, but I feel that somehow that comes into play.

[dustyDesperado]

Have any of you considered that the game itself is not the virus, but the hope of a cure afterwards? If you'll remember, Terezi's scale was identified not as something that was going to end the world when it began, but something that merely counted out the minutes until that end was to be had. I believe that Sburb/Sgrub and so forth are actually just the method of preparing another universe once yours is caught up in the eternal conflict of Skaia. No sides are inherently evil, they just all play a part in a cycle that must continue, and the only thing Sburb does is allow people the chance to create a new home after they successfully utilize it and the powers it grants you. Or, failing that, I believe that the game or its creator purposely includes a Beat Mesa equivalent to give hope even in the event that the players are not able to use the chance that Sburb presents you.

On the other hand, entities such as Doc Scratch are evil, because they do seek to corrupt the method that the players use, and to continue riding this along into the next host like a virus.

[Kuyan J]

Both the civilisations we've seen end, ended because of SBurb (without which the reckoning wouldn't have happened because the medium wouldn't have been prototyped, Scratch couldn't have contacted Snowman and Slick couldn't have got to the trolls' session). So SBurb certainly does end civilisations sometimes.

[fedearg_612]

You guys seem to think that because you can use an analogy to explain a part of something, everything about it MUST be explained and justified by that.

Also, Sburb is programmed to last forever, so, it will kill an Infinite ammount of people, to crate more people to kill, to mantain itself, and even IF you can make the Reproductive System analogy, Entire SPECIES aren't and shouldn't be likened to overstated gametes, civilsations are made by individuals with minds, dreams, emotions, and etcetera.
IF Sburb is self aware, or similar, it is guilty of Ommnicide, and it shoulden't get scott-free like Gamzee (he deserved worse, for he was Sober, not high, when he muredered)

[fedearg_612]

Welp, Double Post.

[Unclever title]

You guys seem to think that because you can use an analogy to explain a part of something, everything about it MUST be explained and justified by that.

That's kind of what analagies are for though, explaining things.

Also, Sburb is programmed to last forever, so, it will kill an Infinite ammount of people, to crate more people to kill, to mantain itself,

By the same logic it will spawn an infinite number of civilizations out of the ashes of an infinite number of civilizations and make an infinite number of people into gods, and spawn an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of life forms. It seems that it will do an infinite amount of good as well as an infinite amount of evil. So with respect to the entirety of all eternity, the numbers become rather meaningless.

even IF you can make the Reproductive System analogy, Entire SPECIES aren't and shouldn't be likened to overstated gametes, civilsations are made by individuals with minds, dreams, emotions, and etcetera.

Why not? Just because we know and understand the universe in one way doesn't mean that it is the only way it can be known and understood. Just because we consider ourselves important doesn't mean that a genesis frog would or necessarily should. Note, that I'm not saying what the frog's actions are justified, I'm just saying consider it from the frog's perspective. Wouldn't you sacrifice a tiny living thing that you don't consider in anyway important to ensure the continuation of the human race?

IF Sburb is self aware, or similar, it is guilty of Ommnicide, and it shoulden't get scott-free like Gamzee (he deserved worse, for he was Sober, not high, when he muredered)

If it is responsible for the death of EVERYONE, then wouldn't it likewise be responsible for the births of everyone? 1 civilization spawns a universe, that universe if properly cared for may spawn a large number of other civilizations and universes potentially billions of universes. Life goes on, civilization goes on in successive civilizations, and the remnants of a dead civilization (through sburb game mechanics) leave their mark on civilizations in their child universe. In a sense civilizations grow, die, and reproduce, like organisms themselves.

What? Gamzee being high would have made the murders okay? Also, while sober, Gamzee was pretty clearly insane. Of course that doesn't mean that the murders were okay either. But that's a subject for a different thread.

[fedearg_612]

That's kind of what analagies are for though, explaining things.


By the same logic it will spawn an infinite number of civilizations out of the ashes of an infinite number of civilizations and make an infinite number of people into gods, and spawn an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of life forms. It seems that it will do an infinite amount of good as well as an infinite amount of evil. So with respect to the entirety of all eternity, the numbers become rather meaningless.


Why not? Just because we know and understand the universe in one way doesn't mean that it is the only way it can be known and understood. Just because we consider ourselves important doesn't mean that a genesis frog would or necessarily should. Note, that I'm not saying what the frog's actions are justified, I'm just saying consider it from the frog's perspective. Wouldn't you sacrifice a tiny living thing that you don't consider in anyway important to ensure the continuation of the human race?


If it is responsible for the death of EVERYONE, then wouldn't it likewise be responsible for the births of everyone? 1 civilization spawns a universe, that universe if properly cared for may spawn a large number of other civilizations and universes potentially billions of universes. Life goes on, civilization goes on in successive civilizations, and the remnants of a dead civilization (through sburb game mechanics) leave their mark on civilizations in their child universe. In a sense civilizations grow, die, and reproduce, like organisms themselves.

What? Gamzee being high would have made the murders okay? Also, while sober, Gamzee was pretty clearly insane. Of course that doesn't mean that the murders were okay either. But that's a subject for a different thread.

Firstly, an analogy which only explains one aspect doesn't necesarely explain all the aspects
Also, thinking that there are INFINITE points of view for all posible species doesn't hold much ground, seeing as the only diferent spceies we know of (A2 trolls) that were emotionaly and culturaly different, were that only through artificial means (Doc Scrach)

And BTW, Do we have ANY proof that the frog can think?

[obolisk0430]

It is, however, canon that there are other species in the A2 universe. It's hard to conquer an intersteller empire when the only species in existance is your own. Also, it's more than likely that even the A1 trolls were different than humans. Remember, Scrach's only influence was Fef's lusus. That means that in A1, the trolls would still be nocturnal, and the Alternian sun would still be much stronger than our own. The cultural ramifications of that alone are enourmous.

[Unclever title]

Firstly, an analogy which only explains one aspect doesn't necesarely explain all the aspects
Also, thinking that there are INFINITE points of view for all posible species doesn't hold much ground, seeing as the only diferent spceies we know of (A2 trolls) that were emotionaly and culturaly different, were that only through artificial means (Doc Scrach)

And BTW, Do we have ANY proof that the frog can think?

One, I never said that this biological analogy explained EVERYTHING, it just seems to fit the nature of Homestuck pretty well, therefore, in the interest of speculation why not extend the analogy? It's not like these analogies have clear cut borders of where they do and do not work. Science uses models (analogies gained through observation and inference) to extrapolate upon existing relationships make predictions. My methods here are less than scientific but then again Homestuck is likewise less scientific than reality.

Also I said nothing about INFINITE (you like using that word apparently) points of view just that alternate points of view exist. Trolls and humans have a largely comparable existence having two arms, two legs, the need to eat, sleep, and defecate, and the existence of Will Smith, and John Cusack in common. A genesis frog on the other hand is an incredibly alien kind of existence to both humans and trolls. They could potentially have more in common with horrorterrors than with trolls or humans. Therefore their perspectives (if they can have a perspective) is bound to be very different from our own.

No, we have no proof that the frog can think, we likewise don't have any proof that the frog can't think. So naturally pretty much everything said about genesis frogs other than "they are universes" is pure speculation at this point. But that's part of what the MSPA comic discussion threads are for.

Let's speculate a little on both possibilities here:

If the frog can't think then its actions are governed by natural selection and thus just an amoral part of nature.
If the genesis frog can think, then it's actions are understandable from it's perspective.

Note that this is assuming that genesis frogs have ANY control over their reproduction, which is a natural assumption as most living organisms do (assuming that genesis frogs are living organisms). But, naturally, there is no proof or guarantee of this. If a genesis frog does not have any control over its reproduction then it probably has no place in discussion in this thread.

I'm assuming they do have some control over it (at least in choosing to try to reproduce or not) and that Sburb is the 'biochemical' reaction of how this takes place.

[justiceAuthor]

It is most assuredly inherently evil. That is why, ad infinitum, millions of tadpoles will be created, yet only one will actually be used to provoke the transformation of the fully-formed Battlefield into a new universe, where the battle may begin again. The only end in sight are the Null/Void Sessions (I forget which is which), where the Battlefield never develops into a state where it may be fertilized. But apparently, even those may be used via surrogates.