The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

[Wessolf27]

I doubt the Black King's sceptre can unleash the Reckoning, because if it could why would he have to defeat the White King?
Anyway, I believe my point still stands that preventing the Reckoning would not take away the character-growth aspect of the game.

I'm sorry, but there's this one thing that I have to say.

If you recall, early in Act 2, we know that Dave didn't really want to play the game because to him, it's just a silly game. But when he knew that Rose was in peril, he decided to play the game so that he could save her. This wasn't exactly the thing that changed his view of the world, but it lead him into entering the game and learning more about himself and his feelings for the people he knew. The meteor wasn't the exact cause of his growth as a person, but if he hadn't played in the first place, how would he have even become the person that we know him right now?

[kraine]

Maybe it actually is just a game. Created by people on Earth. Once the kids get to a certain point, they wake up in their homes again. There were no dream worlds, their parents aren't related, trolls never existed, nothing was destroyed. It was just a very in-depth, mind-reading AI game that was superimposed on their lives in order to be very convincing. Sure, John does have weird harlequin clowns all around his house. But that's because his dad likes them, not because Gamzee put them there. He's never been in his dad's room outside of the game. Jade dreamed of Prospit throughout her life - or did she? Maybe the game created counterfeit memories once they started. Or maybe the game adapted to the dreams she'd been having all along.

[CSJ]

I doubt the Black King's sceptre can unleash the Reckoning, because if it could why would he have to defeat the White King?
Anyway, I believe my point still stands that preventing the Reckoning would not take away the character-growth aspect of the game.

I'm sorry, but there's this one thing that I have to say.

If you recall, early in Act 2, we know that Dave didn't really want to play the game because to him, it's just a silly game. But when he knew that Rose was in peril, he decided to play the game so that he could save her. This wasn't exactly the thing that changed his view of the world, but it lead him into entering the game and learning more about himself and his feelings for the people he knew. The meteor wasn't the exact cause of his growth as a person, but if he hadn't played in the first place, how would he have even become the person that we know him right now?

So; it's okay to undergo undue suffering, being the victim of manipulation and being metaphorically screwed over if it makes the sufferer a better person?

If so; why don't we apply this in the real world? Answer: because it doesn't work like that. Even in the game, there are examples of people who become douches/bitches because of their experiences in the game and in the cases of Rose and Eridan, well... not nice things happen as a result.

[Wessolf27]

I doubt the Black King's sceptre can unleash the Reckoning, because if it could why would he have to defeat the White King?
Anyway, I believe my point still stands that preventing the Reckoning would not take away the character-growth aspect of the game.

I'm sorry, but there's this one thing that I have to say.

If you recall, early in Act 2, we know that Dave didn't really want to play the game because to him, it's just a silly game. But when he knew that Rose was in peril, he decided to play the game so that he could save her. This wasn't exactly the thing that changed his view of the world, but it lead him into entering the game and learning more about himself and his feelings for the people he knew. The meteor wasn't the exact cause of his growth as a person, but if he hadn't played in the first place, how would he have even become the person that we know him right now?

So; it's okay to undergo undue suffering, being the victim of manipulation and being metaphorically screwed over if it makes the sufferer a better person?

If so; why don't we apply this in the real world? Answer: because it doesn't work like that. Even in the game, there are examples of people who become douches/bitches because of their experiences in the game and in the cases of Rose and Eridan, well... not nice things happen as a result.

Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone. But still there is some quality of it. Also, Eridan never changed from his circumstances because he never listened. He was too caught up with himself to think of anything, and with how he treats his land, it's little wonder that not many would wish to stay with him. I can't say much for Rose, however since we've seen little of her circumstances, and what we did see were mostly instances of when she was being somewhat destructive or grimdark or mysterious.

[Aranfan]

Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone. But still there is some quality of it. Also, Eridan never changed from his circumstances because he never listened. He was too caught up with himself to think of anything, and with how he treats his land, it's little wonder that not many would wish to stay with him. I can't say much for Rose, however since we've seen little of her circumstances, and what we did see were mostly instances of when she was being somewhat destructive or grimdark or mysterious.

What you are saying is that Eridan likely would not have grown due to being so full of himself that he wouldn't listen, unlike Dave who can and does listen when the situation calls for it.

This seems to have less to do with the reckoning and more to do with who they were before they played the game.

[Wessolf27]

Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone. But still there is some quality of it. Also, Eridan never changed from his circumstances because he never listened. He was too caught up with himself to think of anything, and with how he treats his land, it's little wonder that not many would wish to stay with him. I can't say much for Rose, however since we've seen little of her circumstances, and what we did see were mostly instances of when she was being somewhat destructive or grimdark or mysterious.

What you are saying is that Eridan likely would not have grown due to being so full of himself that he wouldn't listen, unlike Dave who can and does listen when the situation calls for it.

This seems to have less to do with the reckoning and more to do with who they were before they played the game.

To be honest, this was only brought up on the discussion of why the Reckoning was important for character development. I guess the end result is that it's too inconclusive to really say what or how the Reckoning affects people. Yes, negatively, that's pretty much across the board, but to me, the certain level of danger that is presented by the meteor invokes people to a fight-or-flight response to be creative enough to work the problems presented to them.

Think outside the box. Be creative. Exploit the game.

This doesn't really have anything to do with creativity. This has to do with stating the facts that have been presented to us at the moment.

Sure, it's probably easy to do so with all the rocket-tech available, but that's also where the war is happening, and all of the fighters there would be too powerful for the players before the Reckoning.

Unless our "Time Variant" is the first to enter. She/He can beat him alone if the King is prototyped only once.

Prospit Dreamers activating their best skills and getting to their Quest Beds early is another viable alternative.

The problem with this statement is that it's never really known how powerful the black king already is even with or without the prototyping compared to an average player who has just entered the medium with barely an idea as to what's going on. Fraymotifs are ridiculously expensive to get and God Tiering might not exactly be recommended that early either. For one, I doubt anybody's going to have the nerve of killing himself, time clone or otherwise in order to achieve godhood. And it's probably unlikely at this point that anyone would know the full consequences of the Reckoning.

This is a particularity of the kids session. You can not extend that to everything. As players, we can find ways to paradoxically make sure that everyone will play.

True, it only extends to the kids' session, but this is simply an example. There are many possible other reasons for players to enter.

Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone.

Since we are discussing assumptions and opinions, allow me to strongly disagree.

It applies to nearly no one. The circumstances before the entry are absolutely more important than what they suffer through the game, especially when the players are ignorant about the vast majority of questions concerning the nature of the game. This is extremely evident in both sessions of the trolls.

Most trolls, but not all. There are a few trolls that do know about the effects of the game, Sollux and Aradia especially. Though, granted, they only know of this because of the circumstances of their abilities. With Sollux's ability to hear the voices of the doomed, and Aradia of the dead, they know the effects of the session.

Albeit, Sollux only knew of the effects after sending the files, and was immediately put to sleep by Aradia, forcing him to play when the meteors are already falling. But that's beside the point. I believe that from this statement alone, there is probable proof that it's possible for players to know the effects of the session. And even then, what the player decides to do whether or not to play the game is entirely up to them.

It's pretty clear that Sollux was against playing SBURB, but we also see that Aradia and possibly Jade play the game with full knowledge of the consequences, or simply because they know for a fact that the events are inevitable for them.

Note that I am not against the characters, I am simply stating what they have done in regards to the story. This is simply an example, and probably might not apply to all players.

[Aranfan]

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Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone. But still there is some quality of it. Also, Eridan never changed from his circumstances because he never listened. He was too caught up with himself to think of anything, and with how he treats his land, it's little wonder that not many would wish to stay with him. I can't say much for Rose, however since we've seen little of her circumstances, and what we did see were mostly instances of when she was being somewhat destructive or grimdark or mysterious.

What you are saying is that Eridan likely would not have grown due to being so full of himself that he wouldn't listen, unlike Dave who can and does listen when the situation calls for it.

This seems to have less to do with the reckoning and more to do with who they were before they played the game.

To be honest, this was only brought up on the discussion of why the Reckoning was important for character development. I guess the end result is that it's too inconclusive to really say what or how the Reckoning affects people. Yes, negatively, that's pretty much across the board, but to me, the certain level of danger that is presented by the meteor invokes people to a fight-or-flight response to be creative enough to work the problems presented to them.

So, once again, we can't say that the Reckoning is, in fact, at all needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

[Wessolf27]

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Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone. But still there is some quality of it. Also, Eridan never changed from his circumstances because he never listened. He was too caught up with himself to think of anything, and with how he treats his land, it's little wonder that not many would wish to stay with him. I can't say much for Rose, however since we've seen little of her circumstances, and what we did see were mostly instances of when she was being somewhat destructive or grimdark or mysterious.

What you are saying is that Eridan likely would not have grown due to being so full of himself that he wouldn't listen, unlike Dave who can and does listen when the situation calls for it.

This seems to have less to do with the reckoning and more to do with who they were before they played the game.

To be honest, this was only brought up on the discussion of why the Reckoning was important for character development. I guess the end result is that it's too inconclusive to really say what or how the Reckoning affects people. Yes, negatively, that's pretty much across the board, but to me, the certain level of danger that is presented by the meteor invokes people to a fight-or-flight response to be creative enough to work the problems presented to them.

So, once again, we can't say that the Reckoning is, in fact, at all needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

We can't really say either that it isn't needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

[Aranfan]

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hide spoiler

Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone. But still there is some quality of it. Also, Eridan never changed from his circumstances because he never listened. He was too caught up with himself to think of anything, and with how he treats his land, it's little wonder that not many would wish to stay with him. I can't say much for Rose, however since we've seen little of her circumstances, and what we did see were mostly instances of when she was being somewhat destructive or grimdark or mysterious.

What you are saying is that Eridan likely would not have grown due to being so full of himself that he wouldn't listen, unlike Dave who can and does listen when the situation calls for it.

This seems to have less to do with the reckoning and more to do with who they were before they played the game.

To be honest, this was only brought up on the discussion of why the Reckoning was important for character development. I guess the end result is that it's too inconclusive to really say what or how the Reckoning affects people. Yes, negatively, that's pretty much across the board, but to me, the certain level of danger that is presented by the meteor invokes people to a fight-or-flight response to be creative enough to work the problems presented to them.

So, once again, we can't say that the Reckoning is, in fact, at all needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

We can't really say either that it isn't needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

I actually think that we can. As far as we are able to tell, Bilious Slick just needs the space player to do the ectobiology with frogs, and to prevent the Reckoning from slamming into the lillypad. If the Reckoning is needed for the process, then it is needed in some way that we have no hint of yet.

[Wessolf27]

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Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone. But still there is some quality of it. Also, Eridan never changed from his circumstances because he never listened. He was too caught up with himself to think of anything, and with how he treats his land, it's little wonder that not many would wish to stay with him. I can't say much for Rose, however since we've seen little of her circumstances, and what we did see were mostly instances of when she was being somewhat destructive or grimdark or mysterious.

What you are saying is that Eridan likely would not have grown due to being so full of himself that he wouldn't listen, unlike Dave who can and does listen when the situation calls for it.

This seems to have less to do with the reckoning and more to do with who they were before they played the game.

To be honest, this was only brought up on the discussion of why the Reckoning was important for character development. I guess the end result is that it's too inconclusive to really say what or how the Reckoning affects people. Yes, negatively, that's pretty much across the board, but to me, the certain level of danger that is presented by the meteor invokes people to a fight-or-flight response to be creative enough to work the problems presented to them.

So, once again, we can't say that the Reckoning is, in fact, at all needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

We can't really say either that it isn't needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

I actually think that we can. As far as we are able to tell, Bilious Slick just needs the space player to do the ectobiology with frogs, and to prevent the Reckoning from slamming into the lillypad. If the Reckoning is needed for the process, then it is needed in some way that we have no hint of yet.

Well, maybe we need a count on what the Reckoning does on the host planet just to get our priorities straight.

1. Sends the Frog Temple into the planet very early into its conception. Said Frog Temple will indicate that the planet will play the game. It will indicate the state of the incipisphere (hypothesis) and the number and method of entry of the players. It will also bringing along the following objects:
   
   • The probable code of SBURB (judging from how Sollux was the one to create the codes of SGRUB with Aradia's instructions) whatever they are, they're supposed to be the inscriptions written through the length and breadth of the temple.
   • The Lotus Capsule, which releases certain objects at a certain time.
   • The First Guardian of the planet who aids/obstructs in several things, one of which is the awakening of the hero of Space to Prospit.
2. Sends the main players along with another set of would-be players that would serve as the guardians/ancestors of the current playing team as well as being the reserve team in the event of a Scratch
3. Sends the exile terminals (note that they do not contain the exiles inside them since we've seen that the various exiles entered through other means). These meteors are the same ones which threaten the safety of the players entering the session.
4. Sends other miscellaneous meteors that might either contain exiles, or other objects, or most probably just be there to help in the destruction of a planet.

Well, that's the current count. I'm not sure if I've missed any or if there's any more reasons that may be added to the list.

[Aranfan]

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Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone. But still there is some quality of it. Also, Eridan never changed from his circumstances because he never listened. He was too caught up with himself to think of anything, and with how he treats his land, it's little wonder that not many would wish to stay with him. I can't say much for Rose, however since we've seen little of her circumstances, and what we did see were mostly instances of when she was being somewhat destructive or grimdark or mysterious.

What you are saying is that Eridan likely would not have grown due to being so full of himself that he wouldn't listen, unlike Dave who can and does listen when the situation calls for it.

This seems to have less to do with the reckoning and more to do with who they were before they played the game.

To be honest, this was only brought up on the discussion of why the Reckoning was important for character development. I guess the end result is that it's too inconclusive to really say what or how the Reckoning affects people. Yes, negatively, that's pretty much across the board, but to me, the certain level of danger that is presented by the meteor invokes people to a fight-or-flight response to be creative enough to work the problems presented to them.

So, once again, we can't say that the Reckoning is, in fact, at all needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

We can't really say either that it isn't needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

I actually think that we can. As far as we are able to tell, Bilious Slick just needs the space player to do the ectobiology with frogs, and to prevent the Reckoning from slamming into the lillypad. If the Reckoning is needed for the process, then it is needed in some way that we have no hint of yet.

Well, maybe we need a count on what the Reckoning does on the host planet just to get our priorities straight.

1. Sends the Frog Temple into the planet very early into its conception. Said Frog Temple will indicate that the planet will play the game. It will indicate the state of the incipisphere (hypothesis) and the number and method of entry of the players. It will also bringing along the following objects:
   
   • The probable code of SBURB (judging from how Sollux was the one to create the codes of SGRUB with Aradia's instructions) whatever they are, they're supposed to be the inscriptions written through the length and breadth of the temple.
   • The Lotus Capsule, which releases certain objects at a certain time.
   • The First Guardian of the planet who aids/obstructs in several things, one of which is the awakening of the hero of Space to Prospit.
2. Sends the main players along with another set of would-be players that would serve as the guardians/ancestors of the current playing team as well as being the reserve team in the event of a Scratch
3. Sends the exile terminals (note that they do not contain the exiles inside them since we've seen that the various exiles entered through other means). These meteors are the same ones which threaten the safety of the players entering the session.
4. Sends other miscellaneous meteors that might either contain exiles, or other objects, or most probably just be there to help in the destruction of a planet.

Well, that's the current count. I'm not sure if I've missed any or if there's any more reasons that may be added to the list.

I think we can cross out the exile terminals from the list, since I'm almost certain they grow from the entry items. Also, while that's what the reckoning does, it was earlier established in this thread that all of those things could be done with Sendification devices instead, the reckoning isn't needed for these things to happen.

[Wessolf27]

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Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone. But still there is some quality of it. Also, Eridan never changed from his circumstances because he never listened. He was too caught up with himself to think of anything, and with how he treats his land, it's little wonder that not many would wish to stay with him. I can't say much for Rose, however since we've seen little of her circumstances, and what we did see were mostly instances of when she was being somewhat destructive or grimdark or mysterious.

What you are saying is that Eridan likely would not have grown due to being so full of himself that he wouldn't listen, unlike Dave who can and does listen when the situation calls for it.

This seems to have less to do with the reckoning and more to do with who they were before they played the game.

To be honest, this was only brought up on the discussion of why the Reckoning was important for character development. I guess the end result is that it's too inconclusive to really say what or how the Reckoning affects people. Yes, negatively, that's pretty much across the board, but to me, the certain level of danger that is presented by the meteor invokes people to a fight-or-flight response to be creative enough to work the problems presented to them.

So, once again, we can't say that the Reckoning is, in fact, at all needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

We can't really say either that it isn't needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

I actually think that we can. As far as we are able to tell, Bilious Slick just needs the space player to do the ectobiology with frogs, and to prevent the Reckoning from slamming into the lillypad. If the Reckoning is needed for the process, then it is needed in some way that we have no hint of yet.

Well, maybe we need a count on what the Reckoning does on the host planet just to get our priorities straight.

1. Sends the Frog Temple into the planet very early into its conception. Said Frog Temple will indicate that the planet will play the game. It will indicate the state of the incipisphere (hypothesis) and the number and method of entry of the players. It will also bringing along the following objects:
   
   • The probable code of SBURB (judging from how Sollux was the one to create the codes of SGRUB with Aradia's instructions) whatever they are, they're supposed to be the inscriptions written through the length and breadth of the temple.
   • The Lotus Capsule, which releases certain objects at a certain time.
   • The First Guardian of the planet who aids/obstructs in several things, one of which is the awakening of the hero of Space to Prospit.
2. Sends the main players along with another set of would-be players that would serve as the guardians/ancestors of the current playing team as well as being the reserve team in the event of a Scratch
3. Sends the exile terminals (note that they do not contain the exiles inside them since we've seen that the various exiles entered through other means). These meteors are the same ones which threaten the safety of the players entering the session.
4. Sends other miscellaneous meteors that might either contain exiles, or other objects, or most probably just be there to help in the destruction of a planet.

Well, that's the current count. I'm not sure if I've missed any or if there's any more reasons that may be added to the list.

I think we can cross out the exile terminals from the list, since I'm almost certain they grow from the entry items. Also, while that's what the reckoning does, it was earlier established in this thread that all of those things could be done with Sendification devices instead, the reckoning isn't needed for these things to happen.

No, the exile terminals are indeed in the meteors. you remember what happened to Dave and Jade's meteors? And what happened to the Egg and Bec Head Exile terminals? Dave's meteor was cut in half by Bro in [S] Descend. And the Egg Exile Terminal was in split vertically in two places. When Bec destroyed Jade's meteor, it had exploded into many large pieces, all of which had been scattered almost half-way across the world. When the Bec Head terminal was reconstructed, the pieces that it was made of flew from many parts of the world to reform.

Also... how would you sendificate something as large as a temple? I don't exactly suppose think that there's one large enough to do all that? I don't think that they would even have the time to deconstruct something as large as it either.

[Aranfan]

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Okay, I digress, it doesn't apply to everyone. But still there is some quality of it. Also, Eridan never changed from his circumstances because he never listened. He was too caught up with himself to think of anything, and with how he treats his land, it's little wonder that not many would wish to stay with him. I can't say much for Rose, however since we've seen little of her circumstances, and what we did see were mostly instances of when she was being somewhat destructive or grimdark or mysterious.

What you are saying is that Eridan likely would not have grown due to being so full of himself that he wouldn't listen, unlike Dave who can and does listen when the situation calls for it.

This seems to have less to do with the reckoning and more to do with who they were before they played the game.

To be honest, this was only brought up on the discussion of why the Reckoning was important for character development. I guess the end result is that it's too inconclusive to really say what or how the Reckoning affects people. Yes, negatively, that's pretty much across the board, but to me, the certain level of danger that is presented by the meteor invokes people to a fight-or-flight response to be creative enough to work the problems presented to them.

So, once again, we can't say that the Reckoning is, in fact, at all needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

We can't really say either that it isn't needed for the creation of Bilious Slick.

I actually think that we can. As far as we are able to tell, Bilious Slick just needs the space player to do the ectobiology with frogs, and to prevent the Reckoning from slamming into the lillypad. If the Reckoning is needed for the process, then it is needed in some way that we have no hint of yet.

Well, maybe we need a count on what the Reckoning does on the host planet just to get our priorities straight.

1. Sends the Frog Temple into the planet very early into its conception. Said Frog Temple will indicate that the planet will play the game. It will indicate the state of the incipisphere (hypothesis) and the number and method of entry of the players. It will also bringing along the following objects:
   
   • The probable code of SBURB (judging from how Sollux was the one to create the codes of SGRUB with Aradia's instructions) whatever they are, they're supposed to be the inscriptions written through the length and breadth of the temple.
   • The Lotus Capsule, which releases certain objects at a certain time.
   • The First Guardian of the planet who aids/obstructs in several things, one of which is the awakening of the hero of Space to Prospit.
2. Sends the main players along with another set of would-be players that would serve as the guardians/ancestors of the current playing team as well as being the reserve team in the event of a Scratch
3. Sends the exile terminals (note that they do not contain the exiles inside them since we've seen that the various exiles entered through other means). These meteors are the same ones which threaten the safety of the players entering the session.
4. Sends other miscellaneous meteors that might either contain exiles, or other objects, or most probably just be there to help in the destruction of a planet.

Well, that's the current count. I'm not sure if I've missed any or if there's any more reasons that may be added to the list.

I think we can cross out the exile terminals from the list, since I'm almost certain they grow from the entry items. Also, while that's what the reckoning does, it was earlier established in this thread that all of those things could be done with Sendification devices instead, the reckoning isn't needed for these things to happen.

No, the exile terminals are indeed in the meteors. you remember what happened to Dave and Jade's meteors? And what happened to the Egg and Bec Head Exile terminals? Dave's meteor was cut in half by Bro in [S] Descend. And the Egg Exile Terminal was in split vertically in two places. When Bec destroyed Jade's meteor, it had exploded into many large pieces, all of which had been scattered almost half-way across the world. When the Bec Head terminal was reconstructed, the pieces that it was made of flew from many parts of the world to reform.

Also... how would you sendificate something as large as a temple? I don't exactly suppose think that there's one large enough to do all that? I don't think that they would even have the time to deconstruct something as large as it either.

I will concede the point of the terminals, since I can't be arsed to find the part where the Bec Head terminal comes together, although I will point out that the Egg terminal halves weren't as far apart as the meteor halves were.

As to your sendification question, the upgraded Alchemiter does have a "size" setting. Just scale up the sendification device as needed.

[Wessolf27]

Also... how would you sendificate something as large as a temple? I don't exactly suppose think that there's one large enough to do all that? I don't think that they would even have the time to deconstruct something as large as it either.

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002657

Okay, I concede to that point.

@Aranfan: Well, we have seen something of a "portable" (if not detachable) sendification device in the form of Jake's sendificator, but to resize something that complex might require a rather large amount of grist (and probably need amounts of uranium to rival nuclear power plants) to the point that it'd be impractical for players to alchemize something large enough to sendificate parts of the Frog Temple. Grist that they could probably better use for other equipment that might prove more necessary in completing the game proper.

[Aranfan]

Assuming there is always a time player, and that boondollars can buy grist, then they can do Dave's stock market scam to get the needed resources.

[Wessolf27]

Assuming there is always a time player, and that boondollars can buy grist, then they can do Dave's stock market scam to get the needed resources.

A Time player is a certainty, but it has never been shown that Boondollars can buy Grist because they are gaming abstractions that probably can't be bought or held at all.

Also, if that is the case, the Time Player will have to grind way too much just to get that amount of grist, even then, it seems like certain kinds of grist are only accessible from more powerful enemies, so depending on the grist types that might show up, it's probably going to require large amounts of rare grist. Something which the time player will require powerful weapons and fraymotifs just to contend against, God-Tier powers notwithstanding.

[Atarlost]

Assuming there is always a time player, and that boondollars can buy grist, then they can do Dave's stock market scam to get the needed resources.

A Time player is a certainty, but it has never been shown that Boondollars can buy Grist because they are gaming abstractions that probably can't be bought or held at all.

Also, if that is the case, the Time Player will have to grind way too much just to get that amount of grist, even then, it seems like certain kinds of grist are only accessible from more powerful enemies, so depending on the grist types that might show up, it's probably going to require large amounts of rare grist. Something which the time player will require powerful weapons and fraymotifs just to contend against, God-Tier powers notwithstanding.

The stock market is based on grist futures, therefore boondollars must be able to buy grist.

The simplest way, though, to make s___b not directly kill a large fraction of all people ever is to delay the session until the meteor threat is irrelevant. There are two things that make the meteor threat irrelevant. One is the development of powerful space defenses. The other is the near abandonment of the homeworld. The latter may be inevitable because of finite stellar lifetimes. There may be ways around this, but they would seem to imply the capability of interstellar colonization. Sensible interstellar civilizations can recover and eventually will become so large that the loss of a planet is a minor blip in the civilizational mortuary statistics.

[Oblivion]

Anyway, facts? You are making stuff up the most!

I fail to see what he's "making up". List them if you're going to make these kinds of accusations.

Unless our "Time Variant" is the first to enter. She/He can beat him alone if the King is prototyped only once.

Problem with this. Certain kinds of Grist are simply not available until the players associated with them enter the game. Uranium Grist was needed for several recipes John and Dave tried - Felt Duds off the top of my head for one - but couldn't be acquired because Jade wasn't in the Medium yet and Uranium was her associated item. (Oil for John, Chalk for Rose, Amber for Dave.)

And before you mention the stock market, Dave was already fiddling with that before Jade got in. We still don't see him ever wearing the Felt Duds until just after she arrives, when John goes Godtier. This suggests that the Grist wasn't even available through that means until Jade entered, and as soon as she was in Uranium started popping up, allowing Dave to acquire it and make the Felt Duds as he'd intended prior. Point being. If only one player gets in, only their Grist - plus the non-associated stuff - is available for use. Leveling is good and all but they need to upgrade their equipment as well.

So their equipment options are limited, they have no available assistance from another player, and they have to learn how to use their abilities very quickly (and most likely without the assistance of a Beta guide like Davesprite). IF they can somehow accomplish that, then yeah maybe they stand a chance, especially if they can reach Godtier. But that's a big IF.

[Aranfan]

One of the Daves in the lohacse was wearing Felt duds. Edit: And the Uranium grist is one of the ones going up in the the virtual porkhollow app.

Edit2: And my plan doesn't need the time player to get in first, just to work the financial sector.

[Atarlost]

So their equipment options are limited, they have no available assistance from another player, and they have to learn how to use their abilities very quickly (and most likely without the assistance of a Beta guide like Davesprite). IF they can somehow accomplish that, then yeah maybe they stand a chance, especially if they can reach Godtier. But that's a big IF.

Their equipment options are limited only by what's available to them. For a civilization with Alternia's level of technology and a less stupid social structure that could include things that could be adapted without alchemy into weapons capable of destroying Derse.

Civilian orbital habitats imply surface-orbit shuttles. Any civilization capable of building long duration FTL starships can do this trivially. Teach Derse the Kzinti lesson.

[Wessolf27]

Anyway, facts? You are making stuff up the most!

To be honest I really don't see where you're coming from here. Most of the things I've used are based on the comic and I've even cited many references from there. If you're going to make an ad hominem accusation, please have more reason than that.

[Wessolf27]

Ad hominem? If that was the impression that I passed, my apologies. However, I am criticizing your arguments and posture, not you. This can hardly be considered ad hominem.

Anyway, in various degrees, everyone here is making stuff up. I just want you to contribute with some ideas instead of always using assumptions as facts against our assumptions.

What assumptions am I making up? I really don't see them

[Wessolf27]

Fine. No assumptions. None. Only cold hard facts. Sorry about that. I will be more specific and careful next time. Anyway, I do not want to derail this convoluted thread even more.

None taken, just saying this because in a debate like this, it's important to get your facts straight before you say anything.

[Legendary]

Sensible interstellar civilizations can recover and eventually will become so large that the loss of a planet is a minor blip in the civilizational mortuary statistics.

I'm not really gonna join this debate again, but reading this gave me a horrible mental image of a cool interstellar civilization spreading out, finding that every planet they inhabit has a First Guardian and a Frog Temple, spreading S---b to every world because it's a cool video game, and then destroying half of their galaxy when the respective Skaias use relativistic meteors to prove their points.

[fedearg_612]

Hey, kind of off-topic, but i y's best to bring this up.
The four kids havent even started to move away from Skaia's subtle yet All-reaching grasp, all that has happened since the begining to [S]ascade to now, everytning they have done, it's all in the (criptic) books in Seer: Descend, Jade's awesome ascent into the Dog tiers was just another movement of a peon in Skaia's Complex and perhaps the Horror Terror's complex game of Chess.
So, no, they are not acting out on their free will, they aren't "growing up" or "coming out of age" ,
They are just getting played