DOTA 2: Disbanded or Terrible Associations 2: In Loving Memory of PGG

[Atyidae]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

It would be nice if you guys could do a writeup for sure though. I kinda enjoy this theorycrafty stuff.

As Nyselm and I are actually the same person, I(/we)'d be glad to.

If I recall correctly, I had first pick.

The bans are very standard, besides the fact that I slip up. While banning LeShrac and CK are perfectly reasonable, I should've done the same thing as Nyselm and ban a hero that has the POTENTIAL to be good but is not entirely sure if I have the potential to play it (ES); Instead, I ban Invoker, which, in retrospect, would be a HORRIBLE pick for him (As I am the only one in the lobby who can play him, and we both know it) instead of chen/enchantress, which lets him either use his 3rd ban on Furion, or 3rd ban Invoker, which then lets me be free to FP the one he didn't.

We end up letting Furion through, which I obviously pick because, well, I shouldn't have to explain Furion first pick; He's got the potential to either semi-carry, hard carry, support, AND he has global presence like none other than Tinker. Nyselm responds with a very, VERY obvious Rubick pick, because not only does he know I love to pick/play it, it's always good (even though picking him first phase usually ends up forcing you into a trilaning situation, making your lanes very predictable.). He also picks up Windrunner, who is again, like AA/Rubick/LeShrac, and can play literally ANY role her team needs her to fill. This solidifies his decision to trilane, as he now has one of his solo lanes. Not to mention both of these heroes can buy Mek, Pipe or Drums, and these are pretty essential items. My team ends up without a good Mek carrier in the end, which dicks us a little in the teamfights IMO.

I respond with one of the two picks I took my team's call on (Because it was coincidentally the thought I had in my head.), and pick Dark Seer. I believe DS was the correct decision because I needed someone to live against his trilane who would still get some farm, and he also adds some teamfight control will wall+vacuum. Even though he would've lost to the WR in lane, he would've been able to transition into a jungle if he needed to.
My (Dire's) third pick is where I fucked up a little. I should've picked tide, due to how much more he brings to my team when played by a low-skilled player then CM does, in addition to the fact I had forgotten that Tide even existed. CM was my brain going 'I want Panda, because if I pick up Panda, he can't win a teamfight!'. I then realized I had no one to PLAY Panda. Oh well, I'll just roll with it. If I pick CM here, I can still push, teamfight, gank, OR turtle, and I'm not committing to anything but a DS solo lane.

He responds with an AM pick. What the FUCK? We were actually in mumble talking to each other for the duration of both games, and this pick is prefaced with "My team is making me pick this". I don't think it was a good pick, as I prefer to leave my carry ambiguous until 4th pick so you can't ban out the supports I wanted, and I know that Nyselm much prefers Weaver as a pick in general. I guess he was pressured by his team, and this now tells me that his trilane needs a stun OR lich.

Alright, second ban phase. Let's do this. He needs a support with a stun, BAN VS! My team is already talking about picking NS, which is one of the two semicarries I want to pick (The other one being PotM), and -Armor is a very bad thing for him. Not to mention I also want to pick Enigma (Because I forgot ALL ABOUT Tide) and swap is a spell that disrupts black hole through BKB. I didn't think much about this ban, and think that had I not wanted Enigma so badly I might've banned, say, SD to block out the 'level one manta killing power AM' problem that an SD/Rubick/AM lane could have for my DS.

Because Nyselm isn't a FUCKING RETARD (Like he is whenever I lane with him) he read my thoughtless, quick VS ban as a 'WANT ENIGMA', and bans Enigma.
I go 'fuck', and we both remember Tide exists. We want tide. I ban lich because SUCK A DICK ANTIMAGE.
I'm not sure why he banned TA. Maybe he wasn't really sure what I wanted, and realized that I'm still looking for my mid, and wasn't sure if we could play TA. I wouldn't have picked it, as we both know tide is a dude who exists.

Picking phase; I pick Tide, because I want my teamfight control, and if he takes Tide I think I auto-lose.
He picks Sandking to round out his trilane, and grab up the last real teamfight hero in the pool. Not only that, but he can still SK mid and pick another support. I kinda lost my shit in my own head here and de-focused from the draft because I realized that my team is berating me for not picking Doom, and that I'm going to have to play Tide/CM as a duo top, and that I'm not going to be in that lane. Hopefully I'm just feeding windrunner, and neither of them roam. I call my lanes, and decide on a last pick; I tell my team to pick what they want, I think I'm going to have to play 1v5. I finish off with a Balanar pick, which I do not think was the correct option. I wanted a ganking semicarry, which brings an interrupt to the table. I should've picked PotM, because her ult also brings teamfight and global escape to the table.

Nyselm responds with a very surprising Slardar pick, as I know he doesn't like the hero. The -Armor is pretty horrible for my team, and the stun causes a lot of problems. Bash is a non-factor, as it is random, but ends up winning him a few fights. He also ends up beating my Nightstalker mid because nobody on my team bought wards for rune control, and I assumed Nyselm had them.

In the end, I believe that my team had a HUGE edge pick-wise, and that we were simply outlaned and outplayed, and that I ended up drafting for players equal my skill instead of doing something like picking invoker for myself and winning all 3 lanes simultaneously, or picking Tide-DK-Sven-Leoric-Pudge, and then letting my team out-tank them while I play pudge and win every fight.

[MobileMammal]

I had to go get a new phone during the first invitational, so I got to miss it. It sucks, because I'm sure you guys would have enjoyed hiding, in vain, from the Tide. Aw well.


I DIDN'T EVEN GET A NEW PHONE! A FOOL'S ERRAND MADE ME MISS IT! *sobs*

[forkinyoureye]

Here, have a bit of insight as I respond to a few things.

He responds with an AM pick. What the FUCK? We were actually in mumble talking to each other for the duration of both games, and this pick is prefaced with "My team is making me pick this". I don't think it was a good pick, as I prefer to leave my carry ambiguous until 4th pick so you can't ban out the supports I wanted, and I know that Nyselm much prefers Weaver as a pick in general. I guess he was pressured by his team, and this now tells me that his trilane needs a stun OR lich.

This was kind of us pressuring him into an AM. You had three int heroes, a properly played AM eats int heroes for breakfast, so there you go.

I'm not sure why he banned TA. Maybe he wasn't really sure what I wanted, and realized that I'm still looking for my mid, and wasn't sure if we could play TA. I wouldn't have picked it, as we both know tide is a dude who exists.

Lanaya ban was my suggestion. We knew you were looking for both a mid and possibly a carry, and I know that she fits both of these roles quite nicely. I'll admit I wasn't really thinking because I didn't get that Lanaya didn't pop into your head as a good mid as easily as she did mine.

[chimaeraUndying]

Quick question:

Once TA gets her ult up, (assuming smart trap placement) is there any reason to buy Observer Wards ever again in the match?

[Tensei]

The vision on TA's traps is a tiny area around them and the 5 traps at level 6 aren't nearly enough to cover all the important spots on the map. So yes.

E: I think Balanar was the right pick because our team was very short on lockdown for AM, and we already figured that we would try secure a big early advantage rather than try to outcarry him (which didn't work out, but that wasn't really because of the draft). Mirana's CC isn't reliable (and we were lacking in skills to set up her stun outside of Frostbite) and AM simply outcarries her. I also think DS vs WR isn't necessarily disadvantageous for either hero, they're both hard to kill and they can both farm quite safely, so barring any big misplays they wouldn't really be able to kill each other or shut down each others farm.

I was also kinda surprised by the complete lack of Enchantress/Chen on both teams.

[Bandages]

The only pick on our team that wasn't decided by everyone was Slardar and that was fine

I suggested the enigma ban and was hoping to grab tide, but alas

[Nyselm]

Here, have a bit of insight as I respond to a few things.



This was kind of us pressuring him into an AM. You had three int heroes, a properly played AM eats int heroes for breakfast, so there you go.

Okay, so I wrote this post last night, but I guess the forum ate it and I didn't notice. Having 3 int heroes doesn't pressure you to pick Anti-Mage, Primarily because Anti-Mage Isn't more effective against int heroes. I suppose your logic is that int heroes have a lot of mana, and Anti-Mage burns mana, but what that means in actuality is that it is harder for Anti-Mage to accomplish his goal of making you unable to cast your spells. Here is why Anti-Mage was a bad pick: Picking a carry for your team in the first stage can sometimes have merit if the draft is already going in a clear direction, but from the early non-committal picks from both sides, It was not. Picking AM third allows Medic to make more educated bans that harm an AM lineup, as well as picks like NS who counter him. Additionally, if I decided I did want AM fourth, and Medic had already picked or banned him, there are many other heroes that do what an anti-mage does very similarly, PA for example, so he's not a unique hero who merits an early pick a lot of the time. Lastly, AM was actually pretty bad against the picks he had already made, as DS's wall is really good against AM, as are surge and vacuum to stop AM from hitting his team, and CM has a lot of particularly long disables that are good against AM moreso than other carries.

[zeratuljo1291]

its so cool that the fact that nyselm and medic know each other and their own playstyles just added a layer of depth to the draft. i kind of want to archive these discussions because seeing the draft from your views against my views as an outsider are almost completely different interpretations of the same draft. #reasonsilovedota

as a side note, another good melee mid that can control nightstalker is beastmaster. good ranged harass and slow with the boar as well as rune control with the hawk. excellant single target stun with roar. all the more to consider.

as another increasingly annoying sidenote: If you create a lobby, there is an option for ALL RANDOM :3c. perhaps we should do 1 AR and 1 CM?

[Tensei]

Maybe SD would be preferable to AR, because not everyone is comfortable with every hero in the pool. Personally I'm fine with either mode though.

[dynamicEquilibrium]

One could make a case that AM actually does hardcounter int heroes, but not by shutting off their spellcasting
He has completely absurd magic resistance as a passive, and his ult hits vastly harder against int heroes than anyone else, not because he drains more of their mana but simply because they spend so much more

If the enemy team has a large number of magic damage nukes, but not a bunch of long-term disables, AM seems like a counter because he would take so much less damage from them than other agility carries

[Nyselm]

Fair point, but int heroes don't necessarily have more nuking power then str or agi heroes such as Beastmaster, or Nyx.

Also, I am completely fine with the idea of All random, sounds awesome :P. Though does it mean that everyone starts with 853 gold?

[Nyselm]

double post :<

[Milskidasith]

One could make a case that AM actually does hardcounter int heroes, but not by shutting off their spellcasting
He has completely absurd magic resistance as a passive, and his ult hits vastly harder against int heroes than anyone else, not because he drains more of their mana but simply because they spend so much more

If the enemy team has a large number of magic damage nukes, but not a bunch of long-term disables, AM seems like a counter because he would take so much less damage from them than other agility carries

It depends heavily on what int heroes you're dealing with, though. Sure, AM fucks up, say, Pugna (absurd mana pool, his ability to do magic damage is part of his survivability, and while he has a nice way to stop autoattacks, that's not going to make AM at all scared of him), but a guy like Shadow Shaman just gives zero fucks about Anti Mage's MR because his ult is physical and he's chain disabling AM for over eight seconds.

With Dark Seer, CM, and NP as the first three picks... I don't see AM as a significant threat to them. DS's shells are incredibly painful but besides that the three picks aren't really there for magic damage and all have CC that kind of messes up AM's day.

[Bandages]

Tree ring doesn't really mess with am since he can blink

And besides I was handing out force staff escapes like it was government mandated force staff escape day

AM used to be king of dota 2 but now there are heroes who counter him well enough. Although bloodseeker has always been my favorite am counter.

[Milskidasith]

That's why you tree ring him immediately after a blink... much like how you only tree ring Treant if you're going to immediately cast E in the area and make him put his invis on cooldown.

If you tree ring him after blink and he doesn't have a quelling, he'll be ringed for almost the entire duration. It's not the best CC ever, but it's still significant.

[Tensei]

Problem is that if an AM uses Blink offensively he will generally be right next to you or one of your allies which isn't exactly the best time to tree him.

[Azruelli]

Also, I am completely fine with the idea of All random, sounds awesome :P. Though does it mean that everyone starts with 853 gold?

Yeah. Everyone starts with 853 gold. You can repick too, but that kind of defeats the point.

[dynamicEquilibrium]

Problem is that if an AM uses Blink offensively he will generally be right next to you or one of your allies which isn't exactly the best time to tree him.

This.

Tree Ring is actually negatively useful against AM.
If he blinks onto someone, you just trapped them so that AM can kill them and they have no chance to escape, while protecting him from your team with the wall.
If he blinks away from you, he just got out of Tree Ring's range so you can't cast it at all.


edit: And of course if you cast it at a time other than right after a blink, he just blinks out and kills you.

[Milskidasith]

Problem is that if an AM uses Blink offensively he will generally be right next to you or one of your allies which isn't exactly the best time to tree him.

Depends on the ally. Certain units are actually big enough they cannot be treed in with a unit if they're in melee range (Chaos Knight, transformed Syllabear).

Unless your team is significantly melee, the tree ring does not protect him, and if your team is significantly melee, tree ringing *anybody* you want to focus in a teamfight is a bad plan and you should be tree ringing somebody you don't want to do much but aren't trying to burst down.

Again, it's not the best CC in the world against AM, but unless you're stupid it can still be used effectively against him. If your tree ring really causes problems due to location you blow it up with E, which lategame is pretty much the only good use for the treants anyway because of how likely they are to bodyblock people if you just have an army.

[Portalboat]

Does anyone else here have an extreme hate for Pudge?

[Bandages]

No, he's SO FUN to play as!

"Hooked ya"

[Jacquerel]

Ah, fresh meat.

He can be sort of intimidating on the enemy team but he's not that much of an issue.

[Milskidasith]

I hate that everything pudge says is global.

[Jacquerel]

It's only the grab and miss sounds that are global, and to be honest I'm pretty glad to know when either of those has happened.

[ParanoidHombre]

When he's on your team though, knowing that a plate of delicious fresh meat is available for numnums is great. In general Pudge is just amazing. When he's on your side.