Homestrife 4⅓ - Development Thread 2 - Tech Demo 2 out now!

[Rikushadow5]

I can speak from the Fightan N00BScrub's perspective and say that QuarterCircles are cool. They're pretty easy to pick up on. The only annoying ones are the ones that go Up, since that's usually Jump. I am very happy that they decided to implement a system that read for that in Skullgirls, so you don't try to do something fancy and end up jumping instead.

However, the V>^>V>>V^^VV>>V>Punch button combos that a lot of fighters I've seen like to use? That's assinine and I really hope we don't use something like that.

[Darlos9D]

I can speak from the Fightan N00BScrub's perspective and say that QuarterCircles are cool. They're pretty easy to pick up on. The only annoying ones are the ones that go Up, since that's usually Jump. I am very happy that they decided to implement a system that read for that in Skullgirls, so you don't try to do something fancy and end up jumping instead.

However, the V>^>V>>V^^VV>>V>Punch button combos that a lot of fighters I've seen like to use? That's assinine and I really hope we don't use something like that.

There won't be anything more complex than quarter circles. Also, upward directions in this game aren't a problem because up is NOT jump.

[BRPXQZME]

jegus, what’ve you been playing, mortal kombat fatalities only edition?

(I kid! I kid! it’s a legitimate concern. however, QCFs only is not only easier to play, but easier to program. easier to program means less bugs means less kinks to work out. totally okay with it, is what i’m sayin)

[Rikushadow5]

jegus, what’ve you been playing, mortal kombat fatalities only edition?

(I kid! I kid! it’s a legitimate concern. however, QCFs only is not only easier to play, but easier to program. easier to program means less bugs means less kinks to work out. totally okay with it, is what i’m sayin)

What have I been playing? RPGs and Action games. And League of Legends.

I don't really play Fighters much. However, I do know how the mechanics work, and am usually fairly decent at balancing things. I just suck at actually PLAYING them. Which is why I'm here to offer the n00bscrub's perspective.

Basically, anything more complex than a Full Circle is gonna be a bitch to play.

[dreamingKitty]

um i feel kind of awkward asking but is it too late to audition for voice acting?

[PumpkinAppearifier]

I can accept that. That was probably a primary reason for Smash itself being designed with the N64/Gamecube controllers in mind.

If it turns out that the game is just not playable with a stick then I can always scrounge up a Gamecube controller.

How can you connect a gamecube controller to your computer? Is there some sort of USB converter thing I can buy?

[Darlos9D]

Alright, now that we got that sorted out, I want to talk about the combo system. As has been stated before, we want combos that are short but sweet, and also not too difficult execution-wise (ignoring weird little links here and there that I'm sure will show up no matter what we do). Part of this is facilitated by the fact that you have a pretty limited move set to draw from in this game. Every character only has 8 ground moves, which isn't much in the face of other traditional fighters, and many if not most of those attacks won't cancel into each other. In the air is a different story though: every character has 10 air attacks, which is actually way MORE than most traditional fighters, since most traditional fighters don't have a lot of aerial command normals. Still, most of them are there more for covering different directions than they are for comboing, and again not all of them will cancel into each other. So, an individual ground or air string of normal attacks isn't going to be very long.

Of course, combo length really tends to come less from the length of individual strings and more from a character's ability to move between ground and air strings. We already know certain normals will be jump-cancellable, which already means moving from a ground string to an air string will be easy street. From there it's an issue of how easy it is to move from an air string back to another ground string. Even if an air string knocks the opponent prone on the ground, there are still OTG options for characters that can relaunch into more comboing. And of course, don't forget terrain-based shenanigans such as bouncing opponents off surfaces, canceling an air combo by landing on a jump-through platform that was above you both, or getting characters stuck in stage hazards.

Basically, this all leads to potential for long combos if left unchecked. So, how are we checking it? There's always the old standby of hitstun proration, but I feel (thanks to Skullgirls) that this is a bit of a crude final option, and would like to try and think of some other things.

First and foremost would be an effort to reduce the possibility of relaunches after air strings. One of the more common ways such relaunches happen is when the attacker can land on the ground and do a ground attack before the hitstun from the last air attack wears off. There are various ways to work around that, such as how long jumps last, and the hitstun and forces involved in air attacks. Basically, we can just try to design the game so the opponent always either hits the ground before the attacker does, or the opponent recovers in the air too fast if you try to delay your attacks at all. In the case of hitting the ground though, we still have OTG to worry about. In this game, I plan on characters always going prone on the ground if they land from the air while still under the effects of hitstun, so there's no "restand" possibilities. But there's still some moves that can OTG and relaunch them from the prone position. Obviously those moves are limited in number, but if they're usable at all then there's always the potential that they can result in infinite loops if there's no limit on it. We could always just limit the number of OTGs allowed in a single combo, but much like hitstun proration I feel like that's a bit crude.

Even if we get all that worked out, there's still the issue of potential team combos. While we want team combos to exist because they'd be awesome, we also don't want there to be team INFINITE combos, which would be far too easy if one attacker can recover from their attacks while the other continues the combo. Relaunches could go on forever between two characters, and that's bad.

So, we kinda need a way to limit combos that succinctly takes care of all of these issues in one fell swoop, rather than a jumbled collection of little specific exceptions all over the place. Since everything seems to hinge on relaunches, maybe there could be a specific limitation regarding that. I'm not sure though...

[ArmsAreLoud]

I don't think there's really an issue with just saying that you are only allowed one relaunch per combo.

[Darlos9D]

I don't think there's really an issue with just saying that you are only allowed one relaunch per combo.

How do we define "relaunch" though? Any hit following landing after the first air string?

[ArmsAreLoud]

You can jump cancel a move once per combo.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

@PumpkinAppearifier: Yes. It is possible to get a USB adapter for Gamecube controllers. I got mine many years ago, so I imagine they are hard to get a hold of these days. I doubt they make them any more.


On combos: Wouldn't it, in theory, be difficult to do extended combos anyway? With the 3 knockback tiers depending on how low your health is, this could be enough to throw any long combos out.

[Darlos9D]

@Arms: Wouldn't that disallow a relaunch completely? Note when I say "relaunch" I mean going into the second air combo, not the first. Also, what do we do about specials that inherently put the character airborn, such as STRONGjump or teleports? Would they be affected by the limit as well? This would require trying to put too many exceptions into too many moves for my tastes.

On combos: Wouldn't it, in theory, be difficult to do extended combos anyway? With the 3 knockback tiers depending on how low your health is, this could be enough to throw any long combos out.

Depends on what moves cause the extra knockback, as well as what the player does with it. On the first point, aren't only some of the harder-hitting moves getting the extra knockback? On the second point, the player can bounce them off of a surface and theoretically keep hitting them from there. Sure that's situational... but there's typically always a floor at least, so if you can knock them downward hard then you can ground bounce them back up and probably into more stuff.

That's actually another thing about the combo system. The terrain bouncing seems a bit abusable without some kind of limitation on it as well. Like, imagine Equius below a solid ceiling, just uppercutting an opponent into it ad infinitum. Shit needs to stop at some point, somehow.

[ArmsAreLoud]

I think it's just that you're using Marvel mechanics without wanting to have Marvel combos. OTG's and other combo extenders are usually reserved for games that have really long combos.

If you want to keep the combos short without making things messy you're going to have to modify those mechanics. :\

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

@Darlos: Well, for starters, don't forget about surface teching. Second, maybe a Burst feature might be useful. But something more along the lines of the Skullgirls one maybe? I also imagine that the knockback tiers will affect all attacks. Since it's a percentage increase, some will scale more or less than others.

@Arms: Since we want to kinda keep combat natural and logical, OTG's and launchers and such are simply part of our system. If a move looks like it should hit OTG, or launch someone, it will. John's f+H is a good example. The hammer slams all the way to the ground, therefore it will hit OTG. The back swing will also likely launch people somewhat in order to link to the second hit.

[ArmsAreLoud]

I get that, I'm just saying that these are mechanics that you see in anime games. Marvel, Guilty Gear/BlazBlue, Arcana Heart, they all manage to get these wacky long combos because the mechanics that they have (and are being implemented here) allow them.

[Darlos9D]

I think it's just that you're using Marvel mechanics without wanting to have Marvel combos. OTG's and other combo extenders are usually reserved for games that have really long combos.

If you want to keep the combos short without making things messy you're going to have to modify those mechanics. :\

Well yeah obviously. I'm just trying to figure out how to go about it.

Also keep in mind by "short" I just mean "not 20-30 seconds long." Part of that is already alleviated by the fact that this game will move at a healthy pace, so moves start up quickly and there isn't huge hitstop or anything. Because of all that I'm alright with combos involving a relaunch or two since it wouldn't make them too horribly long. Just gotta figure out specifically how to limit it.

Now I'm starting to think that maybe we should take a cue from King of Fighters of all things and maybe severely limit the ability of ground attacks to hit airborn opponents who are in hitstun. Like, either let that happen only once per combo, or not even let it happen at all. That would pretty much ruin all attempts at relaunches. Then we could also only have one OTG per combo.

EDIT: Of course, a problem with this is the fact that there are air attacks with knock back, and if you can always hit with those then they could be used for loops too.

It seems pretty clear that there needs to be some overall limitation on hitting airborn targets that are already in hitstun. I'm just not sure what it is.

I also imagine that the knockback tiers will affect all attacks. Since it's a percentage increase, some will scale more or less than others.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Was Smash even like that? I though the knockback increase only affected smash attacks.

I figured the intent of the increased knockback was to give more distance to high knockback moves, not make combos more difficult. I don't necessarily want people to be protected by the fact that their health is low.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

No, every attack in SSB has scaling knockback. The thing is, each attack has it's own individual values, so each attack scales differently. There's no global scale.

But like with everything else, it's something we can play with. Like I said, with the scale being a percentage, the heavier the knockback, the more it's affected by the scale. Light attacks will hardly feel it, heavy attacks will be very noticable. There could also be flags to prevent the scale on specific hitboxes. Anyway, it's just an idea to throw around. Easier to handle than arbitrarily limiting specific combo extenders I think.

[Darlos9D]

No, every attack in SSB has scaling knockback. The thing is, each attack has it's own individual values, so each attack scales differently. There's no global scale.

But like with everything else, it's something we can play with. Like I said, with the scale being a percentage, the heavier the knockback, the more it's affected by the scale. Light attacks will hardly feel it, heavy attacks will be very noticable. There could also be flags to prevent the scale on specific hitboxes. Anyway, it's just an idea to throw around. Easier to handle than arbitrarily limiting specific combo extenders I think.

These "arbitrary limits" are kinda necessary to prevent loops though. Trust me when I say that if the only "limitation" is increased knockback on lower health, people will make loops out of it if there are no other limitations. And if there's other limitations, then there's no point in making increased knockback affect all attacks since it doesn't really help with anything.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

Hmm, true.

Since we want the system to be flowing and natural, "limits" kinda go against that. I do understand the necessity though. Maybe the key here could be in teching and/or some sort of burst system. Maybe sacrificing meter and/or health to "wake up" and counter, but only in certain conditions.

[Darlos9D]

Hmm, true.

Since we want the system to be flowing and natural, "limits" kinda go against that. I do understand the necessity though. Maybe the key here could be in teching and/or some sort of burst system. Maybe sacrificing meter and/or health to "wake up" and counter, but only in certain conditions.

Well, if such actions require resources in the part of the victim, there's still going to be loops if they don't have the resources, which is still bad. Ultimately there's going to be some kind of hard limit on the attacker's options, even if its something like SG's system. Even that system ends legit combos by effectively removing your non-burst-triggering options over the length of a combo, even if its up to the victim to actually burst.

I'm tempted to just use an altered version of SG's system to be honest... I mean shit, it's a good idea. It should be proliferated.

Since combo paths are so limited in this game, we probably wouldn't have to limit the number of OTGs per combo like SG does.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

What's SG's system? I'm aware of the anti-infinite system(and the ways around it), or is that what you're talking about?

Thinking about it, the expending meter to "burst" idea is unbalanced to begin with. Some characters gain meter by being hit, while others don't. The former would be at a big advantage.

[Darlos9D]

What's SG's system? I'm aware of the anti-infinite system(and the ways around it), or is that what you're talking about?

Thinking about it, the expending meter to "burst" idea is unbalanced to begin with. Some characters gain meter by being hit, while others don't. The former would be at a big advantage.

Actually there are no "ways around" the anti-infinite system in SGs. Believe it or not, its working precisely as intended.

First, you have to understand that combos are divided into "strings." A new string starts whenever the attacking character reaches a neutral non-attack state, be it jumping through the air or standing on the ground. So for instance if you hit the opponent a few times on the ground with moves that cancel into each other and end with a launcher, and then follow them into the air with a jump, that's the end of the string because once you jump, you're in a neutral state in the air until you attack them and start your air combo. Then if you hit them with air attacks that cancel into each other and then land, that's the end of another string because when you land, you're in a neutral standing state until you attack them again while on the ground.

So, here's how the IPS functions with all this in mind: the IPS checks the first move of every string you start. If that move was used in a previous string, it triggers the burstable state for the victim. This means you can make strings not trigger the IPS by simply starting a string with a move you haven't used in the combo yet, and its pretty easy to start a string with a different light attack and still essentially have the same string as you've used already, which is probably what you're thinking of as a "way around it." It's not though, since that's how it's supposed to work. Also you can do things like have your first air string just be a jumping heavy punch, land, do a ground string into a launcher, and then jump up and do a medium punch into heavy punch, land, and so on. The second jumping heavy punch doesn't trigger the IPS because you didn't start the string with it. You started it with jumping medium punch.

Also there's a caveat: the attacks you use in your first two strings don't count towards the IPS detection, unless you end the first string with a jump cancel. Then only the first string doesn't count. Also some assists negate this too.

Hopefully that made sense.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

Ah k, I didn't know the technical side of things. Had a kinda general idea though. Also, I didn't so much mean way around as I did "way around". I understood that it was just a matter of mixing things up, ie. not making it an infinite "loop".

So what kind of natural, flowing options are there? This is just a personal opinion, I see both sides, but I'd prefer something that the defender has to work for to end the combo, rather than limiting the attacker. I'm not super knowledgeable in fighting game mechanics, so I'm not the biggest help here.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Well if we used the Skullgirls IPS but got rid of the "everything chains into everything else" system that they have then that would shorten combos considerably.

[Darlos9D]

So what kind of natural, flowing options are there? This is just a personal opinion, I see both sides, but I'd prefer something that the defender has to work for to end the combo, rather than limiting the attacker.

Some kind of system where the attacker, while getting hit, could work to mess up the opponents combo would be... unfavored, I think. The only exception here is flat-out bursts/combo breakers, but those should require resources or specific circumstances (such as triggering an IPS). Those options flat-out end the combo. A system where the opponent could do little things during the combo to maybe-mess-up-the-combo-maybe-not would be kinda annoying and probably negate the need to actually learn combos since none of them would be even remotely reliable. That's bad if we want actual combos going on regularly. Also, any system like that would probably just boil down to "mash on buttons randomly" for the person getting hit, which isn't really using your brain.

Well if we used the Skullgirls IPS but got rid of the "everything chains into everything else" system that they have then that would shorten combos considerably.

Indeed. Hence why I said we wouldn't need to limit OTGs in our case.

So we have two things to figure out here: what triggers the system, and what happens when its triggered. For what triggers the system, we could do the same thing as SG and only check the first attack of each string. Or we could do something more strict, all the way up to flat-out only allowing each attack to be used in a combo once. One feature I really do want to hang onto though is the notion that the first string (or first few attacks, at any rate) don't "count" towards triggering the detection later. The reason that's really damn good is because that means combos are "starter independent." That is, the combo you ultimately do doesn't change based on the attack(s) you started it with. This is good because it means the player only really has to learn a few combos, as opposed to a whole bunch based on different starters. That's just easier for everybody. Plus I want the "different combos" in this game to be more concerned with the available terrain and environment.

As far as what happens when it's triggered: our system doesn't HAVE to involve bursts. Like, when a repeated attack is detected, it could just make the attack whiff, or just become really ineffective and quickly allow the opponent to tech (kinda like when you try to hit the opponent OTG in GG). And it'd probably do the same to all following attacks too.

I don't want it to be too obvious of a ripoff, heh.