Homestrife 4⅓ - Development Thread 2 - Tech Demo 2 out now!

[Pingu]

By the way, with the life-node thing, it was a measure of how much health there was per life.
I only did this because not all characters have the same amount of health apparently.
It was basically my OCD trying to avoid having the same size life bar for different amounts of life, also to make it very clear how much health was left, but I understand.

[trulyElse]

I'm thinking the special bar should be 60 segments long - each segment counting for 2 units of special - because math.

Most characters so far have their special moves as either 12.5%, 25%, 30%, 50% or 100% of the bar, and the only number large enough to actually give much significance to gained meter (without being too big so as to render it futile / needless) that divides evenly amongst those is 120 (15, 30, 40, 60, 120 respectively.)

This also gives us the option of a 20% special in another character, if we so chose (24).

Edit: Or at least a multiple thereof.

[Darlos9D]

Oh people. There is going to be MUCH more granularity in health and meter values behind the scenes. 120? Try thousands.

The Prankster's Gambit meter might look like just a few big segments, but each one probably corresponds to a much large amount behind the scenes.

Really, this isn't something you guys need to worry about. Don't worry, I'll math it up to work right.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

^Exactly. Just looking at John's page on the wiki, you can see that the average value of health and special will be 10000 and 5000 respectively. Some characters will be higher, some lower.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Just be happy that this isn't Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, where health is measured in the trillions. Trillions!

[Rikushadow5]

Just be happy that this isn't Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, where health is measured in the trillions. Trillions!

That is a preposterous amount of health.

[Darlos9D]

That is a preposterous amount of health.

I think it was actually more of a joke. The first time I did a combo and the screen yelled at me "3 BILLION DAMAGE" I kinda just laughed. That's just going into parody territory.

I can guarantee you that the "behind the scenes" numbers are actually smaller. Hell, even in MvC3 you can chop two zeros off of the end of all the damage and change nothing. It's just goofy fluff.

[DJ_Sucre]

Well, I suppose now's as good a time as any to put this here.

I guess it's supposed to be a SSB-esque HUD?

[Darlos9D]

Hey guys. I want to talk a bit about the control scheme again.

So as you might already know, the control scheme looks like this:

L - Light Attack Button
H - Heavy Attack Button
J - Jump Button
B - Block Button
Direction + L/H - Command Normal
Double Tap (or Smash) Direction + L/H - Special
Direction + L + H - Super
B + L/H - Throw
Double Tap (or Smash) Up/Down while holding B - Dodge Up/Down
Double Tap (or Smash) Left/Right - Dash Left/Right

So, there's a lot of double taps in there, doing some completely different things. I've always worried that might be a problem. Dodging and dashing aren't a problem since they use different directions, and one requires holding another obvious button. Specials that use Left/Right directions, Dashes, and Left/Right command normals have the potential to get a bit awkward though. I've brought this up before, but I continue to be a bit concerned about it. While in general it might not cause a whole bunch of problems, there's one specific scenario that seriously concerns me.

So, say you need to move a very short distance quickly, and then do an attack. Well, you're going to want to dash for a brief moment, and then attack. Unfortunately, this involves double tapping forward and then hitting L or H right afterward. That, as you know, is how you activate a special. This is all well and good if you want to do a quick dash and then a special, but what if you want to do a normal like a neutral L? The only way to make that works is to design special commands to only work if the player is still holding forward when they hit the attack button. So a special wouldn't be "double tap forward and press an attack button" as much as it would be "tap, then press and hold forward and press an attack button." That way, you could dash a small distance and then release the direction before hitting the attack button to get a normal.

Now, I think we've actually talked about all that in the past and came to that same conclusion. There's one more thing to consider though: what if you want to dash briefly and then do a forward command normal? Command normals ALSO require you to be holding the direction when you press the attack button. So how the heck do you do that? If you double tap to dash briefly, then release forward, then hold forward again and press the attack button, the second tap from the dash would count as the first part of a special input and you'd end up with a forward special. I'm not really sure how to work around that without some really awkward exceptions programmed into the input parser. Like, I'd have to program the game to specifically not register any consecutive forward directional tap inputs if there's more than one of them preceeding a forward directional hold plus an attack button press. That could work I guess but... I'm afraid it'll cause its own issues. Like, if the player somehow accidentally triple-taps or something when they try to do a special, they'll get screwed out of the special, which seems dumb.

This isn't an issue that can just be ignored. Doing a brief dash into a forward normal is easily a thing that could be a part of a combo, or just be useful for positioning certain forward normals better. What do we do about this?

[vocalyActingout]

Um, I just found out about this, do you by chance need any more voice actors? Also this looks like it is going to be a really fun game.

[Darlos9D]

Alright, so FM and I hashed this out on pesterchum: there will no longer be specials activated by forward double taps. Instead, we're going to introduce quarter circle motions. Right now it looks like we only really need the classic "fireball" motion (down, down-forward, forward), and all of the moves on existing characters that used double forward taps now use that motion. Now something interesting is that this opens up the possibility of using other quarter circle motions that utilize the upward directions, such as up, up-forward, forward. We might do this with future characters if it feels "better" than up/down double taps.

Don't worry, there won't be a "dragon punch" motion in this game. For all intents and purposes, the classic dragon punch motion is replaced in this game by the double up tap.

Also for the sake of consistency, supers will no longer be activated with single taps. Instead, they will also use double taps and quarter circle motions. They still use L+H as the final input though.

Sorry if anybody here didn't want to deal with quarter circle motions, but we honestly have no other option here since forward double taps for specials is just way too awkward. Also, quarter circles aren't so hard. I'm sure everybody can get used to it.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Woah, I thought we were already using qcf's.

Double taps are... kind of a pain in the ass. I play Darkstalkers and stick dashing suuuuucks. I'd rather we just use Street Fighter motions for everything but bleh.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

Nope. We did actually discus them pretty early on, but there were complaints. We decided to not use them to cater to people completely green to the concept of a more complicated motion. Now it's kind of a necessity since, with our limited range of possible inputs, there's not much else we can do. Also, just to be clear, we're lumping double-taps and "smashing" in the same bag, so when we only mention one, we mean both simultaneously. The difference between them is whether or not your using analog or digital inputs for movement. So analog stick = "smash"(a toggleable option), d-pad/arcade stick = double-tap.

As said by Darlos already, a variation of QCF will be the limit of the advance inputs. By this we mean; 236, 2369 or 23698. Maybe even QCD(632) or a variation even? But yea, No DP, 360, triangle, charge, 720, etc. I personally have no problem with any of these inputs, apart from triangle, but we're catering to a broad range of skill levels, so the simpler we keep this the better.

On another note, there's a possibility we'll have a button combo as an option for dashing to go alongside of the regular inputs, particularly since we'll have air dashing. Maybe even multi directional air dashing. Not many inputs left, but perhaps Jump+Block or something, I dunno. We also have to figure an input for flight.

[ArmsAreLoud]

I'd argue that qcf's are easier to do on a stick than double taps but I can see how the double taps would be simpler for a pad user since they just have to smash it. I am determined to play this game on a stick so I guess I'll just deal with it.

The pad users need me to be playing with a disability to have a chance anyways.

As for the alternative QCF's, 2369 should be reserved for moves that can be Tiger Knee'd. 23698 and 632 should not exist. Try 214 for another QCF that is hard to drop.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

Well, smashes are impossible on a digital input anyway. Arguably you could say timing could replace it(direction+attack at the same time(within, say, 2 frames) compared to more frames for a non-smash), but the point is making more variation. Dashing, smashing and command normals all have very similar inputs.

QCB's on the ground are impossible for us I believe, except when dashing I guess, since turning around is instant. 23698 is possible since Up isn't jump; jump is it's own button.

If it helps, I'll pretty much be playing this on a USB Saturn pad. I do have GameCube(adapter) and 360 pads as options as well, but I want to use the Saturn pad.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Auuugh, I need to get out of the Skullgirls mindset I keep approaching this like a Capcom game.

If you have two different moves be 236 and 2369 on the same character then you're going to have instances where you have overlap. When you have overlap you will inevitably have instances where you will attempt to do one special and end up doing another. Overlapping inputs should be avoided at all cost with the exception of related moves such as a special and it's TK'd counterpart.

And even then I have a hard time getting Tron's TK Bonne Strike to come out when I need it.

This game needs to come out already so I can see just how little my experience with Capcom games actually helps me.

[Darlos9D]

Arms: Keep in mind that whenever I say "double tap" it can be replaced with "smash" if you're using a stick. You won't have to double tap on a stick, since I'm aware that that's a pain in the ass.

Of course if you don't like smashing... well, sorry.

Also there will be no overlapping motions. Actually there can't be. Here's the available motions:

236
632 (maybe)
896
698

None of those really overlap in the sense you're talking about. And I also think that's plenty of commands. We don't need half circles or weird quarter-and-a-half motions.

[ArmsAreLoud]

I'm... pretty sure that arcade sticks don't recognize the "smash" input and just read it as the direction? If my Eightarc can do that that would be news to me. I suppose I'll have to test out to see if I can play Smash Bros. with it.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

Oh, of course. We are making sure not to have overlapping inputs. That's why we've just added the QC motion. We're just throwing 2369 and 23698 as options anyway. Most, if not all characters, will simply have Up, Down and QCF as smash/double-tap options. 2369/23698 will replace Up if used at all. Same would go for 632 replacing Down.

On arcade sticks: Yes, arcade sticks and d-pads will not register a "smash", or rather, only register "smashes". On a stick or d-pad, there is absolutely no difference between a tilt or smash(hence the double-taps on digital inputs). They are only available on an analog stick. From a technical standpoint, a "smash" input is going from neutral to the furthest in a direction within a certain amount of frames. You can't not do that on digital inputs since you only have 0 and 1 as options. Nothing in between.

[Darlos9D]

Oh, arcade sticks are analog? Guess I shoulda known that...

Wait, how the heck do you play games that require double tap left/right for dashes if it gives you trouble? Also there is precedence for double-tap-down specials in traditional fighters. Certainly it wouldn't be difficult to deal with. And double-tap-up wouldn't be any harder.

[ArmsAreLoud]

In hindsight I over exaggerated how difficult it is. It isn't hard at all, it's just that button presses are easier, mainly because I have an eight button stick so with the exception of Skullgirls I can have a dedicated dash button.

Although I can not tell you how many times I have dropped the input for BB Hood's double tap down cross under. I dunno why, it just doesn't like to come out for some reason. Bleh.

Don't take these posts as a "BLAH BLAH YOUR DESIGN PHILOSOPHY IS WRONG AND SHOULD BE MORE LIKE CAPCOM'S" because I'm more than willing to adapt.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

No, arcade sticks are all digital, same with d-pads. I'm just saying on digital controls there is no tilt and smash as there is only 0 and 1. You can't slowly press in a direction.

I've played around in SSBB using my Saturn pad. Depending on how you set up the controls, you lose the ability to easily use some things. While emulating a GC pad you lose walking(unless you dash off a platform or jump first), forward tilt(unless you walk first), up tilt(unless you turn tap jump off), and I think crouching on platforms you can drop through. If emulating the NES style Wiimote(which adds double-taps for dashing and dropping through platforms), you lose up tilt(since there is no option for jumping other than pressing up) and maybe one or two other things I can't recall. For both styles I believe you can do all the tilts and stuff if you combo/buffer into them though.

[Darlos9D]

@Arms: Alright. Also, I think it might be worth noting that this game may not necessarily be designed with an arcade stick in mind at all. I sorta want it to be an un-demanding game physically, and requiring a $100 accessory for high level play just doesn't jive with that. So, we're focusing more on pads and keyboards. Quarter circles are a bit awkward for keyboard but I've heard of people dealing. As long as it doesn't get any more complex than that we should be okay.

I mean really, this game uses a separate button for jumping. You might be better off thinking of it as a platformer with fighting game style attack and defense. If you can play old school platformers with a pad or keyboard then you can play this game with one.

@FM: oh shit I meant digital not analog. Yeah I get it.

[ArmsAreLoud]

I can accept that. That was probably a primary reason for Smash itself being designed with the N64/Gamecube controllers in mind.

If it turns out that the game is just not playable with a stick then I can always scrounge up a Gamecube controller.

[frozenMeatpopsicle]

@Darlos: Yea, of course. Just adding the option for digital input for movements and replacing "smashes" with double-taps is all an arcade stick needs anyway. It's technically the same as using a d-pad anyway. There's no catering, we're just broadening options. Fortunately that's the only important one other than button remapping.