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Thread: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

  1. #726
    Prince of Mind Primal Zed's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Yup. I thought Davesprite/AR colors were slightly different from Dirk/Dave colors (respectively), but I guess I was wrong.
    http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Colors

  2. #727

    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Quote Originally Posted by SubIgnition View Post
    All I'm gleaning from the color change is that Davesprite's on his way out the door.
    Pretty sure the color change s so that we can tell which lines are Dirk's and which are the Auto's

    Quote Originally Posted by ardentApathy View Post
    Exactly. What I'm saying is Jaspers is also a failed paradox clone of Mutie. See where I'm going with this?
    Ectobiology mobius double reacharound, huh? I like it!
    "Of course, its existence has so far proved to be completely without consequence, which is to say it will probably end up being the most important item in the game."

  3. #728
    The best and the worst. SubIgnition's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Shoosh! Your obvious explanation is disrupting my reading way too far into things!

    > Explore the LABYRINTHINE SIGQUOCUBE COMPREHENSILE.

  4. #729
    The l7r. is in. DenizenShipper's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn



    His organization system...

    How does it work???

  5. #730
    Former agent of the LOHAC SEC NullEntropy's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Quote Originally Posted by DenizenShipper View Post


    His organization system...

    How does it work???
    It's inscrutable to everyone but him.

  6. #731
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Quote Originally Posted by DenizenShipper View Post


    His organization system...

    How does it work???
    It's Complete Bullshit.
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  7. #732
    Well-Educated Fool thephilluminati's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    I'm just wondering what the hottest theories down here are about how all these mysterious items ended up with the kids across timelines (Lil' Cal, mutie, the bunnies, etc...) Meteor duplication seems to be the term brought up the most often, but it's just not convoluted enough and way to convoluted to work believably. I'm not sure how popular the theory is that all the adult "guardian" versions of everybody across the scratch are the same characters all grown up, but I feel like that theory would explain a lot especially here. Remember Mom Roxy back in act 4 brought all those items together with dad and not dead grandpa jake so that they could leave on the meteors with the kids.

    I dunno, guardians all did a bunch of mysterious things in the medium back in act 4.

  8. #733
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Does Dirk even have a Denizen??

  9. #734
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    IDE: Complete Bullshit counts as a browser and is going to make for the sorriest excuse of a denizen ever.
    By which of course I mean he's going to look like the icon and surrender the moment he sees Dirk.
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  10. #735

    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    @Philluminati: Your idea doesn't work. We saw a glimpse of Nanna and Grandpa's childhood, and it definitely doesn't match Jane and Jake's.
    Also, you just said the meteor dublication is too convoluted AND not convoluted enough? Huh?
    "Of course, its existence has so far proved to be completely without consequence, which is to say it will probably end up being the most important item in the game."

  11. #736
    Spacemonaut unbeliever536's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    He's saying that meteor duplication is like Hussie Ms Paint, from this chart:


    It has been remarked many times that the chart is totally wrong.
    Lately I've been way more active on GiantITP than here. If you like GAMES you should drop by some time!
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  12. #737
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Right click-Properties-Change icon IDE/Theory: Delirious Biznasty is actually Bro's browser, but he changed the icon and the name to fit better with his theme.


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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    IDE: Dirk's browser is actually one of the horses.
    Lately I've been way more active on GiantITP than here. If you like GAMES you should drop by some time!
    Proud winner of the English language, posesser of a most purple prose.
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  14. #739
    Well-Educated Fool thephilluminati's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Screwloose View Post
    @Philluminati: Your idea doesn't work. We saw a glimpse of Nanna and Grandpa's childhood, and it definitely doesn't match Jane and Jake's.
    Also, you just said the meteor dublication is too convoluted AND not convoluted enough? Huh?
    We got a glimpse into their childhood, but obviously not the whole story. I'm just saying all of the guardians back in act 4 did some mysterious bullshit that we're only now seeing the consequences of. We still don't even know how grandpa ended up in the medium in the first place, much less what he was actually doing there, and if we don't find out in act 6 it's either an important piece of how it all ties together, or never (and knowing hussie it's not gonna be never). At the very least, meteor duplication seems to undermine one of the most awesome twists in act 4 - that all of John's friends had gotten him the exact same bunny for his birthday through time shenanigans. Meteor duplication especially is too convoluted in how much shit you need to make up in a story that's already made up enough things to get it to work. I really can't imagine the comic going in any direction but that being the exact same bunny twisted through the fabric of spacetime to make sure john has the best 13th birthday ever.

    A lot of this also depends on the nature of this glitch lord english causes in sessions, which Doc Scratch left frustratingly vague to the point where we don't even know if that's what we're dealing with now. but there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence against everybody still being themselves other than jane and jake's childhood with sassacre and betty crocker.

  15. #740

    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Quote Originally Posted by unbeliever536 View Post
    IDE: Dirk's browser is actually the fancysanta.
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  16. #741
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Quote Originally Posted by thephilluminati View Post
    We got a glimpse into their childhood, but obviously not the whole story. I'm just saying all of the guardians back in act 4 did some mysterious bullshit that we're only now seeing the consequences of. We still don't even know how grandpa ended up in the medium in the first place, much less what he was actually doing there, and if we don't find out in act 6 it's either an important piece of how it all ties together, or never (and knowing hussie it's not gonna be never). At the very least, meteor duplication seems to undermine one of the most awesome twists in act 4 - that all of John's friends had gotten him the exact same bunny for his birthday through time shenanigans. Meteor duplication especially is too convoluted in how much shit you need to make up in a story that's already made up enough things to get it to work. I really can't imagine the comic going in any direction but that being the exact same bunny twisted through the fabric of spacetime to make sure john has the best 13th birthday ever.

    A lot of this also depends on the nature of this glitch lord english causes in sessions, which Doc Scratch left frustratingly vague to the point where we don't even know if that's what we're dealing with now. but there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence against everybody still being themselves other than jane and jake's childhood with sassacre and betty crocker.
    The glitch that was Lord English calling card was that the pre-scratch troll players were not born in their own session, when they then Scratched their session they summoned Doc Scratch as the first guardian of the reset universe.

    I suggest you read the comic again if you had really forgotten that.


    As for the rest of that, that's where Occam's razor comes in. Sure, it is possible to twist everything into the right sort of clusterfuck where Dirk and Roxy manage to force their way into the Beta universe as their own guardians' guardians, but it's about as far fetched as the "theory" that IRL, there only exists a single person, and upon death that person is reborn and sent to another time, eventually ending with that person having been every person in history.
    Last edited by The Mather1; 02-07-2012 at 12:03 AM.
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  17. #742
    incredible Username Unclever title's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Quote Originally Posted by thephilluminati View Post
    At the very least, meteor duplication seems to undermine one of the most awesome twists in act 4 - that all of John's friends had gotten him the exact same bunny for his birthday through time shenanigans.
    How is this undermined? That all still happened, and it was amazing. John still had the best 13th birthday ever (until his Dad died). Meteor Duplication doesn't negate that being a thing. If you're disappointed that Meteor Duplication means that the same thing won't happen again with Jane... well why should it happen again anyway? I mean it's not like there HAS to be a callback to a thing which was already a callback to other things. This could easily be one of the many differences between the universes pre and post scratch, and a potential major plot point to boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by thephilluminati View Post
    Meteor duplication especially is too convoluted in how much shit you need to make up in a story that's already made up enough things to get it to work. I really can't imagine the comic going in any direction but that being the exact same bunny twisted through the fabric of spacetime to make sure john has the best 13th birthday ever.
    Meteor duplication only requires making up ONE thing. That ONE thing being that in the event of a scratch player meteors from a session on one side of the scratch get sent to both. They also get swapped, but we already knew this from the discussion of how the ancestors became heroes and the heroes ancestors in Scratch's Ancestor discussion. And it's TREMENDOUSLY LESS convoluted than the "exact same bunny twisted through the fabric of space-time to make sure john has the best 13th birthday ever" do I need to quote the diagram again?

    Quote Originally Posted by thephilluminati View Post
    A lot of this also depends on the nature of this glitch lord english causes in sessions, which Doc Scratch left frustratingly vague to the point where we don't even know if that's what we're dealing with now.
    Yeah it does depend on that. What we know of the glitch is that in one universe/session the troll heroes of that session were not spawned by it, and that is the glitch that is a calling card for Lord English. That's for certain, Scratch confirmed it. (Too tired to go link hunting)

    Meteor Duplication offers one explanation for that, that is indeed what it was originally made to explain, and then later applied to IDEs in the human post-scratch session.

    Quote Originally Posted by thephilluminati View Post
    but there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence against everybody still being themselves other than jane and jake's childhood with sassacre and betty crocker.
    Likewise there's not a lot of evidence for it. I think the evidence fits MD better.

    Too tired for this. Imma go bed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Legendary View Post
    It's gonna kick ass though. Unless it's a crummy pacifism-type thing. Then it will calmly and diplomatically approach those offending rumps and deal with them in a civilized fashion.

  18. #743
    Well-Educated Fool thephilluminati's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Okay, sure, what the glitch is is pretty clear, especially now that we have the guardian swap, but let's go over Doc Scratch's wording.

    Though they could not recognize it for the bad omen it was, this session was not the one in which they had been spawned. Such is the symptom of a subtle glitch affecting certain sessions, an error designed to trigger an unfathomable cascade of misfortune throughout paradox space. This glitch is the calling card of the one I serve. It is the discreet, gentlemanly manner in which he reserves his place in a universe for later visitation.
    If we look at his wording, it actually applies more to the current group of kids, since we already saw John's ectobiology session. But there's a LOT we don't know here - we don't know how often a scratch is usual procedure in a Sburb session and what its purpose is, and whether it's implicitly always related to Doc Scratch and Lord English. Andrew writes Doc Scratch obviously with a ton of attention to his specific wording, since what Doc Scratch is talking about and what he's choosing to say are often pretty different things even though he never strictly lies. I guess my theory is more that its simpler narratively for the answers to lie in the vagueries of stuff that hasn't been fully explained (the scratch, sburb, a lot of act 3 and 4) than in something new like meteor duplication. Also, the two theories might not be totally exclusive! I think it's obvious at this point that Jaspers' unfortunate stint as Frigglish was pretty important for GCat's eventual creation within Sburb, and roxy has both ectobiology equipment and apparently an appearifier/transmaterializer.
    Actually, thinking back on it, Mom pretty much performed John's whole first ectobiology experiment herself. She cleared the way to the lab for Maplehoof/John, she made sure all the "meteor items" (asides from the bunnies) were in the room, and presumably she also set the coordinates that the screens themselves were locked on to perform the actual cloning - after all, everything was pretty much in there ready to go when john got there and both mom at Skaia labs and roxy as a hacker femme fatale presumably know more about ectobiology than him. Considering we know at least Grandpa was the source of the money and sburb code from the ruins, and Mom presumably produced and distributed it, obviously these all currently dead characters had some motives and prior knowledge we're not aware of (and we still don't know where in Granpda life his time in the medium falls). I guess I want to know from people who think meteor duplication is a thing - how exactly does that happen? Meteors with kids on them aren't amoebas, and while there's a number of devices that could do something similar in comic, I'm not really sure how it would end up happening.
    I guess more relevantly than meteor duplication, does anybody have any theories about the guardians weird shit they do in act 3 and 4?

    In closing, I personally admit a lot of my theory comes from the tear i get in my eye from this little pesterchum exchange which makes me 100% convinced that Roxy and Dirk need to be Bro and Mom:
    TT: For what it's worth, I'm picturing them now. A boy and a girl.
    TT: Two perfect little freaks of nature raised by people who've clearly got no business bringin' up anybody.
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  19. #744

    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    The reason the pre-Scratch Troll session was a glitch was because they did not have an event that led to their own ectobiologizing unless they Scratched.
    The post-Scratch Humanverse is NOT under this glitch, as they were spawned pre-Scratch.
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  20. #745
    Avatar by rendigo (heehee) ardentApathy's Avatar
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    My Homestuckology Doctorate Thesis on Meteor Duplication Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by thephilluminati View Post
    longpost
    To the first part of the post, I just want to point out that the Condesce's presence on post-Scratch Earth makes it quite clear that Lord English is getting involved in that universe. I've also outlined a feasible means for him to travel to post-Scratch Earth without bothering with the formal summoning process (here), so maybe the glitch isn't present, if him being summoned is a precondition/postcondition of the glitch.

    I will say that I like the "Alpha kids and guardians are the same" theory, but meteor duplication fits too well. And I don't see where you're getting that the bunny in the post-Scratch universe is a different bunny? I thought it was clear that it was the bunny from the Beta universe, just from later on in the bunny's timeline. Appearifiers and all that.

    I guess I want to know from people who think meteor duplication is a thing - how exactly does that happen? Meteors with kids on them aren't amoebas, and while there's a number of devices that could do something similar in comic, I'm not really sure how it would end up happening.
    Ok, my response to this just became WAY too fucking long, so I'm spoilering it for everyone's convenience.

    REAL TL;DR - Meteor duplication creates two different meteors in the same sense that flipping a coin creates two different coins.

    There, that's much better. Read the spoiler if you want my reasoning.



    Just one more thing, in case you think I'm talking out my ass:
    Quote Originally Posted by thephilluminati View Post
    I guess my theory is more that its simpler narratively for the answers to lie in the vagueries of stuff that hasn't been fully explained (the scratch, sburb, a lot of act 3 and 4) than in something new like meteor duplication.
    I basically just explained meteor duplication using ONLY things we already know about the Scratch, Sburb, and paradox space. QED, bitches.

    Quote Originally Posted by thephilluminati View Post
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    I hate arguing, but I LOVE theorizing.
    Last edited by ardentApathy; 02-07-2012 at 04:18 AM. Reason: Coin metaphor FTW
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  21. #746
    It makes sense in my head! Vanymstorm's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Quote Originally Posted by ardentApathy View Post
    Exactly. What I'm saying is Jaspers is also a failed paradox clone of Mutie. See where I'm going with this?
    Well GCat is probably cloned from one of them, and as a first guardian he logically has to have "a unique, circuitous origin through the knots of paradox space." I'd say that works.

    edit:
    Theory: GCat was cloned from both of them. For no good reason.
    Last edited by Vanymstorm; 02-07-2012 at 05:16 AM.
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  22. #747
    Avatar by rendigo (heehee) ardentApathy's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanymstorm View Post
    Well GCat is probably cloned from one of them, and as a first guardian he logically has to have "a unique, circuitous origin through the knots of paradox space." I'd say that works.
    Ooh, I forgot about that! But then what about Halley? He needs a mobius double reacharound origin too, by that logic.

    Also, I'm glad I don't have to keep editing that goddamn behemoth anymore, and can post this on a separate post:

    One slight flaw I noticed with my take on meteor duplication: If the meteors that carry the heroes carry over to both timelines, then surely every other meteor should as well. It's the kids on the meteors that are affected by the Scratch, not the meteors themselves. But we know for a fact that the Alpha session will have a Reckoning, unless Nanna was lying when she said that White will always lose, without exception. So surely those meteors must also be bombarding both Alpha and Beta Earth. And that's just the kids' sessions! There are literally hundreds, perhaps THOUSANDS of sessions on the Skaianet terminal in the lab on Beta Earth, and at least some of them must have progressed far enough to create their own Incipispheres, all with their own Veil and their own Reckoning. If ALL these sessions were throwing meteors at both Earths, then surely there'd be no Earth left for the exiles! It's possible our heroes were the only kids to spawn an Incipisphere, but even then, there'd be close to twice as many meteors hitting both Earths (depending on when/if the Alpha session Reckoning stops).

    One way to remedy this is to assume that Earth is much larger than Skaia, and so can withstand much more punishment (which is backed up by the scales of John, Jade, Prospit's Moon, and the Battlefield in [S] Descend, plus other sources I'm sure). That's probably the soundest answer, but it's also BOOOORING. SO LET'S IDE!

    We know that certain features of the Incipisphere remain constant among sessions, namely the Battlefield, Skaia, Prospit, Derse, and the Veil. But what if not just the Veil is constant, but each meteor within the Veil? Of course, Andrew isn't going to copy every meteor exactly between sessions, but there's no reason to think there wouldn't be the same number of meteors in every session. So what I'm suggesting is that each meteor corresponds to another meteor in every session, much like every Skaia, Battlefield, Derse, and Prospit. Now, we're venturing firmly into speculation territory, but what if every defense portal is constant as well? And for every session spawned by a given universe, each meteor will always enter the same defense portal, and end up in the same place and time? IF that were the case, then meteor duplication theory would actually PREVENT meteors from duplicating! I think that alone makes this a great theory, although it's a bit too speculative to put into my original post.
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  23. #748

    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    @ArdentApathy: slight hiccup in your theory: non-alpha timelines are cut off from communication with other universes. If the first earth session all took place in a doomed timeline, the trolls would have never been able to talk to them.
    "Of course, its existence has so far proved to be completely without consequence, which is to say it will probably end up being the most important item in the game."

  24. #749
    Human of Alfandra simon.clarkstone's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Quote Originally Posted by mysteriousOutsider View Post
    No but what they're saying is that mathematics is above the physical world. It's a system of logic that does not have to correspond with reality at all. The relationship is the other way around i.e. reality has to follow mathematical laws.
    Yes. That was what I meant. Universes can have different laws made from mathematics, but not different laws of mathematics. A related example is that curved-space geometries do not use a different pi, they use pi differently; pi is still four times that alternating sum of the odd reciprocals, but the formulas describing curved space use it differently than those describing flat space.

    A Universe where the laws of mathematics are different make about as much sense as a colour where the order of the alphabet is different.
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  25. #750
    incredible Username Unclever title's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: PM is a pewn

    Thanks, AA, that's a much better way of explaining it. "Duplication" is really a misnomer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Screwloose View Post
    @ArdentApathy: slight hiccup in your theory: non-alpha timelines are cut off from communication with other universes. If the first earth session all took place in a doomed timeline, the trolls would have never been able to talk to them.
    I still don't think that's actually a rule. In the doomed timeline shown in [S] Dave: Accelerate, Rose and Dave just never heard from the trolls, why? Because there was no way that the trolls could contact them, not because they were in a doomed timeline but because they were in a different timeline than the one the trolls were already viewing. Trollian is designed to look at one timeline at a time. The trolls couldn't contact the kids at all until Dave contacted them (in reply to Terezi's future contact) and Sollux backtraced the signal. It's possible that Rose and Dave from the doomed timeline never bothered actually contacting the trolls, but simply took note of their apparent silence as victory for having screwed them over. Therefore having never been contacted from the doomed timeline the trolls never knew of its metatemporary existence. Trollian tries to keep time shit simple by not showing you what you don't need to see when you need not to see it.

    Even if that is actually a rule IDE:

    Then the trolls were able to talk with the kids up until the scratch, if Trollian can only connect alpha timelines then the kid's session and universe were indeed Alpha up until the scratch, then they became beta and had to be wiped, violently. Thus a scratch changes the alpha status of a universe and session pair to beta.
    Last edited by Unclever title; 02-07-2012 at 09:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Legendary View Post
    It's gonna kick ass though. Unless it's a crummy pacifism-type thing. Then it will calmly and diplomatically approach those offending rumps and deal with them in a civilized fashion.

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