IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

[psychoticArctolatry]

I'm going to agree with legendary on the whole "powers" thing; Tangerine, you assume an awful lot.

[The_Codfish]

Yes, and what are clockwork majyyks? They're time abilities, and while they were taught to her by Doc Scratch, they were only able to be taught because she possessed the ability in the first place. Otherwise, everyone would be able to learn every ability that everyone else has.

If you would turn your attention to one of the Condesce's arms when she first appears in [S] Prince of Heart: Rise Up, you'd notice that it'd be flashing in the same way that the Handmaid did.

The Helmsman was the most powerful psychic of his time. Just like Sollux, so that's their similarity.

Some people theorized that the Summoner must have reached the Godtiers in the pre-Scratch session. So it's possible that he had wings just to show how great of a hero he was/is.

Just thought I'd add these few tidbits to the conversation.

[Legendary]

It's not actually known if Mindfang "stole" luck, but she had an extreme amount of luck, which stands to reason that those that she faced did not have an extreme amount of luck when facing her. Vriska didn't display any ability to steal luck until she became a God Tier, either (at least, it was never stated as stealing luck instead of having ALL of the luck), and then it was because she mastered her ability. The point here is that neither Mindfang nor Vriska show any abilities that the other one lacks for sure.

But there's a difference between powers and themes. Also note that Vriska spent a sweep or two having none of the luck.

Yes, and what are clockwork majyyks? They're time abilities, and while they were taught to her by Doc Scratch, they were only able to be taught because she possessed the ability in the first place. Otherwise, everyone would be able to learn every ability that everyone else has.

Rose learned Void abilities. Clearly, corruption is possible.

Not many yellowbloods possessed vision twofold, too, along with looking exactly the same. It's more than just the fact that they have the same telekinesis abilities, it's the fact that everything about them was the same except for their situations.

Vision twofold is still genetic, however. And we know nothing about his personality. It's possible he is a stable chap with one set of moods that aren't going all over the place.

Eridan's attribute could be argued to be something that any troll could do, since it's just HOPE. It's the fact that he's fated to bring hopefulness or hopelessness to some force. The SCIENCE beams stands within something that we can't know since Dualscar always used Ahab's Crosshairs.

HOPE isn't literal hope any more than LIGHT is literal light. It's more complicated than that, and game powers are involved.

She was a Legislacerator for a reason: because she knew how to manipulate criminals to her advantage, just like Terezi did when she FLARPed. Red Glare used her relatively unknown status to ambush Mindfang; she did something that nobody expected and she bypassed Mindfang's luck in doing so. It's the same as when Terezi got revenge on Vriska by telling Doc Scratch about the Cue Ball (Mindfang was in a situation where luck didn't matter), and when Mindfang escaped from the trial it's the same as when Vriska sought more revenge against Terezi.

Again, it's not just the abilities, it's the completely analogous nature of everything that they are.

But again, abilities can change, or never materialize. The twenty-four are certainly very similar. But they're not identical and you can't say "Because one could do x, the other can too, or could have."

What I meant was that that's how he brings about fear: through rage.

All subjugglators seem to have Gamzee's power. There's nothing unique about this.

This is another thing that we don't know. The Summoner could have had something with wings carrying him for all we know, or Tavros could have developed wings at some point. We don't know how the Summoner got those wings, and so we can't use it as an argument for one thing or the other. The abilities that they have shown to have in common were everything that Tavros had, though.

And yet at the same time they're the opposite of analogous. Similar powers, but one set of wings leads to wildly different results. It's like they're different people with different powers.

Her ability should have been becoming a rainbow drinker, which we don't actually know if she did or not because she eventually died of old age while Kanaya was killed by Eridan. We don't know the conditions of becoming a rainbow drinker or if it even means you live forever.

Uh, no she didn't. The last we hear about her, she was sold as a slave. Conveniently, there's a certain jadeblood slave Mindfang happens to pick up, who promptly is killed. By Dualscar. The circumstances are remarkably similar.

Again, we can't assume that all their abilities are exactly the same. The Sufferer's thing is even described as a glitch, and is implied to be something that the pre-Scratch redbloods didn't have. Some other influence may have caused that, one that doesn't affect Karkat.

[tangerine]

I'm going to agree with legendary on the whole "powers" thing; Tangerine, you assume an awful lot.

Firstly, I didn't assume a single thing outside of my IDE, which is what all IDEs are: assumptions. I had an IDE and I backed it up with what is known. Furthermore, I don't claim that every troll has the exact same powers as their ancestors, only that it's extremely likely that they do based on what has been shown so far because, again, this is only an IDE.

If you would turn your attention to one of the Condesce's arms when she first appears in [S] Prince of Heart: Rise Up, you'd notice that it'd be flashing in the same way that the Handmaid did.

I'd noticed that, but then I thought that it also doesn't really prove that the Condesce has exact the same abilities--because lots of characters have had those swirly things around them at times. It could just mean that they fill the same role to Lord English thanks to the non-exclusive powers he gave them, for all we really know.

Some people theorized that the Summoner must have reached the Godtiers in the pre-Scratch session. So it's possible that he had wings just to show how great of a hero he was/is.

That's a good idea, but it raises the question of how he would have gotten the wings in his new incarnation.

[The_Codfish]

That's a good idea, but it raises the question of how he would have gotten the wings in his new incarnation.

The answer to this question is also related to why Roxy's Mom has some limited powers over the Void.

It's likely that if a trait of a player is strong enough, it's basically considered a 'genetic' trait of theirs in their post-Scratch counterpart. Uh, get what I'm saying?

[tangerine]

Uh, no she didn't. The last we hear about her, she was sold as a slave. Conveniently, there's a certain jadeblood slave Mindfang happens to pick up, who promptly is killed. By Dualscar. The circumstances are remarkably similar.

Again, we can't assume that all their abilities are exactly the same.

This is the only bit that I'll reply to because this conversation boils down to assumptions being countered by other assumptions. I'm not even stating that their abilities are exactly the same and that's the end-all point; I've stated that my IDE goes on the assumption that this is what it boils down to and pointed to the similarities to back it up. However, I could just as easily tell you that "we can't assume that their abilities aren't exactly the same" because that's exactly what this conversation is.

Anyway, the Dolorosa wasn't the slave that Mindfang picked-up. At least if we're going by this page, which explicitly states that she spent the rest of her life as property of vicious sea dwellers. The only concession that I can make is that she might not have died of old age, but that doesn't change the fact that we don't know about her and rainbow drinkers.

The answer to this question is also related to why Roxy's Mom has some limited powers over the Void.

It's likely that if a trait of a player is strong enough, it's basically considered a 'genetic' trait of theirs in their post-Scratch counterpart. Uh, get what I'm saying?

I get what you mean, but it's hard to tell if that would be the case or not. I would understand if an ability could transcend the scratch, but having a physical trait completely altered would be hard to swallow.

[The_Codfish]

You think that the physical trait was altered, but it might be more appropriate to say that they were always meant to have that trait. DESTINY. So you could say particular parts of a player's fate always carries over after a Scratch.

The Dolorosa was the slave Mindfang picked up. It's got the backing of the majority of the fanbase, and it makes sense when making connections between the ancestors. If what stops you from believing it is the use of the word 'sea dwellers', you're just being a bit too nitpicky. You could even think of Vriska as a sea dweller, in the sense that she spent most of her life at the point of time she acquired the Dolorosa as a slave sailing at sea, if it'd help you rationalize it.

[Nimz]

As best I can tell, Mindfang lived in her boat, which would allow her, in the human sense, to be referred to as a seadweller, if not in the troll sense. We certainly do not have any concrete evidence for the Dolorosa being Mindfang's red interest that Dualscar had killed, but there is enough circumstantial evidence to allow for it to become a popular theory.

Eh, ninja'd, but I'll post it anyway.

[tangerine]

You think that the physical trait was altered, but it might be more appropriate to say that they were always meant to have that trait. DESTINY. So you could say particular parts of a player's fate always carries over after a Scratch.

Actually, I have a better idea as to why it could work. Notice that when Trolls go God Tier then they gain wings, but Humans don't. This might mean that Trolls have the innate ability to grow wings (or maybe they already have wings but they can hide them, like Vriska in God Tier mode), and The Summoner either discovered this somehow or he was able to do so thanks to his communion with Lusii, who taught him how to do it.

The Dolorosa was the slave Mindfang picked up. It's got the backing of the majority of the fanbase, and it makes sense when making connections between the ancestors. If what stops you from believing it is the use of the word 'sea dwellers', you're just being a bit too nitpicky. You could even think of Vriska as a sea dweller, in the sense that she spent most of her life at the point of time she acquired the Dolorosa as a slave sailing at sea, if it'd help you rationalize it.

Well, as I stated: going by that page and considering that Trolls have a very clear distinction between what is and what isn't a sea dweller because of the blood castes (I'm not nitpicking; the story made the distinction, not me), I'd say that it's unlikely that the slave was the Dolorosa, but otherwise and if Hussie wasn't attempting to be literal then it is a slight possibility.

[The_Codfish]

Metamorphosis is clearly a significant part of troll biology, and therefore ingrained in their mythology. They've got cocoons everywhere, and are often likened to insects through biological terms. The wings have nothing (we know of) to do with troll adulthood. But have a lot to do with their perception of what ascension should be, which is the culmination of a pupation process. Which is why some may look to fairies as an ideal, or rule them out as fiction on account of the ideal they represent. Ascended trolls in this game are essentially magical fairies.

A quote from Hussie about troll wings.

And concerning the Dolorosa: If you refuse to believe it, then there's nothing else to talk about on this topic.

[tangerine]

A quote from Hussie about troll wings.

That quote actually reinforces what I wrote with the addition of that "we know of", since I stated that Trolls might have the innate ability to grow wings without actually knowing about it. :V

And concerning the Dolorosa: If you refuse to believe it, then there's nothing else to talk about on this topic.

I don't really see the point that you're making for it being true, so it's not really a "belief" thing that you can disregard like that. :/ I provided an actual thing that specifically states that she was a slave to sea dwellers while you countered with: "but maybe, just this once in the whole story and contrary to every single other time it was mentioned, 'sea dweller' doesn't refer to actual sea dwellers," which I even stated might be possible even though it's completely improbable.

[fractalVacancy]

I don't really see the point that you're making for it being true, so it's not really a "belief" thing that you can disregard like that. :/ I provided an actual thing that specifically states that she was a slave to sea dwellers while you countered with: "but maybe, just this once in the whole story and contrary to every single other time it was mentioned, 'sea dweller' doesn't refer to actual sea dwellers," which I even stated might be possible even though it's completely improbable.

To be fair, Mindfang being a pirate also means it's entirely possible that the Dolorosa could have been sold to sea dwellers and then ended up on Mindfang's ship. Pirates steal things, after all. And given just how enthusiastically Mindfang was hunted, one would suspect she'd have had to have done something to higher bloods at some point. Especially since that's who you'd mostly find owning ships anyway.

[tangerine]

To be fair, Mindfang being a pirate also means it's entirely possible that the Dolorosa could have been sold to sea dwellers and then ended up on Mindfang's ship. Pirates steal things, after all. And given just how enthusiastically Mindfang was hunted, one would suspect she'd have had to have done something to higher bloods at some point. Especially since that's who you'd mostly find owning ships anyway.

Yes, I know, and that would be all and well if it wasn't explicitly written that the Dolorosa spent the rest of her life in the possession of sea dwellers. Again, I'm not stating that it's impossible, just that it's extremely unlikely that Hussie decided to use the term "sea dweller" for one specific group of Trolls for the entire story except this one short sentence in a single update.

[Nokob]

Mindfang got the slave from Dualscar. While it's not confirmed that the slave was the Dolorosa (or that she was a jadeblood, for that matter), I'd certainly say that's the implication, since every single significant troll character in Mindfang's journal excerpts and Scratch's storytelling is an ancestor. It would be odd for this to be the exception.

Also, I don't think we can say that Mindfang had any sort of "luck powers". She does mention that she used the cueball to "steal fortune" from her adversaries, though.

[tangerine]

Mindfang got the slave from Dualscar.

She stole the slave from Dualscar by vanquishing the ship that was holding her, meaning the slave was under her possession. (I'm not sure whether you meant this already or if you meant that she took the slave from Dualscar's hold and then put her back.)

(or that she was a jadeblood, for that matter)

This is also something that I was going to bring-up. I was re-reading through the journal logs to see where it was mentioned that the slave was jade-blooded because it says that she was on the wiki, but it doesn't mention it anywhere. It just mentions that Mindfang wouldn't have guessed her blood color by looking at her.

[Omi]

I kinda agree with tangerine. However, it wasn't exactly Hussie that was "using" that term. It was Doc Scratch when he "took over" the narrative. Still, it does seems a bit nit picky to categorize mindfang as a "sea-dweller" when it is used to specifically categorize a certain subgroup within the trollian race. Not to mention it is stated that she spends the rest of her life as property to them. She wouldn't be their "property" anymore if she became stolen,traded or sold. If she is said to spend the "rest of her life", meaning more likely she just died of old age rather than just being assassinated aka her life cut short. Sides, its possible that she could've come back as an undead/rainbow drinker.

So yeah, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that the slave Mindfang took wasn't Dolorossa.

[musicalBookworm]

Well, I'm guessing the Dorolsa was the slave Mindfang was with, and when Dualscar came, Mindfang told him, or made out that it was a different slave, and that slave was killed, while the Dorolsa got away without anyone ever knowing. Just a theory...

[manboat]

IDE: The reason that Karkat is so angry all the time for seemingly no reason (as noted by himself in the latest pesterlogs) is because of the Vast Expletive. The lingering Psychic effects of the expletive are still ongoing and Karkat is subconsciously picking up on it (you'd be angry too if you were constantly hearing someone shout FFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKK" in your ears).

[Nokob]

She stole the slave from Dualscar by vanquishing the ship that was holding her, meaning the slave was under her possession. (I'm not sure whether you meant this already or if you meant that she took the slave from Dualscar's hold and then put her back.)

Yeah, the slave did belong to Mindfang. But she died soon after (within 2 bilunar perigees, which are presumably roughly equivalent to days). If she was the Dolorosa, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to think that "She spent the rest of her life as property of vicious sea dwellers" actually means "She spent the rest of her life as property of vicious sea dwellers, except the last two days, which were spent as property of a vicious pirate." It's just not significant enough to bother clarifying, especially given how little time was spent on her story, and can be safely dismissed as a minor detail.

Without the context of the rest of our knowledge of the trolls' ancestors, though, it certainly wouldn't make sense to make that jump and say that the Dolorosa was Mindfang's slave. But with it, it becomes practically unavoidable. These twelve trolls' lives are closely connected; every significant figure in their lives that we're introduced to seems to have been one of the others, which of course makes perfect sense, because they serve as a sort of parallel to the trolls we know, in particular in the area of romance. The possibility of Mindfang Dolorosa? neatly parallels the possibility of Vriska Kanaya, much like Mindfang's former and potential kismeses Dualscar and Redglare parallel the caliginous figures in Vriska's life. And like I mentioned before, I'm pretty sure there isn't a single troll character in everything we've heard about the ancestors that's singled out as an individual (as opposed to, for example, the audience at Mindfang's trial) but is not an ancestor, with this one possible exception.

I guess what I'm saying with all of this is that it's STRONGLY HINTED that the slave was the Dolorosa. A lot of people assume that that was the case, and while we don't have absolute proof, I can't really blame them.
Of course, at the end of the day we don't know for sure. But this is why I think what I do, and I think at the very least it presents a strong case that the slave being the Dolorosa is highly plausible. I'm not sure how applicable that is to the argument that started this, but then I'm not really sure what that argument was actually about in the first place.

[Legendary]

If she is said to spend the "rest of her life", meaning more likely she just died of old age rather than just being assassinated aka her life cut short. Sides, its possible that she could've come back as an undead/rainbow drinker.

Regardless of your belief on the identity of the slave, the phrase "the rest of your life" simply means "until you die." It does not preclude you dying of being crushed by a helicopter five seconds after the phrase is used.

[tangerine]

Well, I'm guessing the Dorolsa was the slave Mindfang was with, and when Dualscar came, Mindfang told him, or made out that it was a different slave, and that slave was killed, while the Dorolsa got away without anyone ever knowing. Just a theory...

You should reread the journal entry that Nokob linked to. Mindfang made sure that it was absolutely clear to Dualscar that she'd stolen HIS slave, because she wanted to be a good Kismesis.

Yeah, the slave did belong to Mindfang. But she died soon after (within 2 bilunar perigees, which are presumably roughly equivalent to days). If she was the Dolorosa, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to think that "She spent the rest of her life as property of vicious sea dwellers" actually means "She spent the rest of her life as property of vicious sea dwellers, except the last two days, which were spent as property of a vicious pirate." It's just not significant enough to bother clarifying, especially given how little time was spent on her story, and can be safely dismissed as a minor detail.

The story was being told by Doc Scratch at the time, and I doubt that he's one to omit any details given his character, especially one which would go against what is explicitly stated. That would mean that he lied, and, as we know, Doc Scratch doesn't lie. Given that detail, I think that it is a stretch to believe otherwise unless this was just a badly done hint on Hussie's part, which I don't discount since Hussie is definitely not a perfect storyteller.

I'm not sure how applicable that is to the argument that started this, but then I'm not really sure what that argument was actually about in the first place.

If you're interested, it started with this IDE that I posted. It comes with the implication that the Trolls and their ancestors share the same abilities, which lead to a discussion about whether that was true or not, which led to the bit that the Dolorosa played in it all to be expanded upon. I'd certainly be interested to see what you think about my IDE if you do decide to take a look at it.

[Legendary]

The story was being told by Doc Scratch at the time, and I doubt that he's one to omit any details given his character, especially one which would go against what is explicitly stated. That would mean that he lied, and, as we know, Doc Scratch doesn't lie. Given that detail, I think that it is a stretch to believe otherwise unless this was just a badly done hint on Hussie's part, which I don't discount since Hussie is definitely not a perfect storyteller.

He also uses word play. Mindfang is describable as a "sea dweller" in an entirely valid fashion. The fact that it's not how trolls would understand the term is irrelevant.

[tangerine]

He also uses word play. Mindfang is describable as a "sea dweller" in an entirely valid fashion. The fact that it's not how trolls would understand the word is irrelevant.

I've already posted counter-points to this. I'm really not going to do it again.

[Legendary]

All I'm saying is that, seeing as Doc Scratch is a man who at one point described an ectobiological sequence as being powerful enough to destroy itself, there's no point in saying "Doc Scratch doesn't lie, therefore sea dwellers = sea dwellers because he always tells the truth." It doesn't prove they're not sea dwellers. It simply proves the argument is invalid.

[The_Codfish]

That quote actually reinforces what I wrote with the addition of that "we know of", since I stated that Trolls might have the innate ability to grow wings without actually knowing about it. :V

You seem to be focusing on one part inside a parenthesis while ignoring the rest of the entire quote.