I'm going to agree with legendary on the whole "powers" thing; Tangerine, you assume an awful lot.
I'm going to agree with legendary on the whole "powers" thing; Tangerine, you assume an awful lot.
Knight of Void
Everyone knows all trolls have 20/20 vision, Sollux's is 10/10 even. All trolls who wear glasses are hipsters who think they look: "awwesome, sophistic8ed, 2pectacular B), JUST1F13D, and D--> E%ceptionally c001."
The Helmsman was the most powerful psychic of his time. Just like Sollux, so that's their similarity.
Some people theorized that the Summoner must have reached the Godtiers in the pre-Scratch session. So it's possible that he had wings just to show how great of a hero he was/is.
Just thought I'd add these few tidbits to the conversation.
But there's a difference between powers and themes. Also note that Vriska spent a sweep or two having none of the luck.It's not actually known if Mindfang "stole" luck, but she had an extreme amount of luck, which stands to reason that those that she faced did not have an extreme amount of luck when facing her. Vriska didn't display any ability to steal luck until she became a God Tier, either (at least, it was never stated as stealing luck instead of having ALL of the luck), and then it was because she mastered her ability. The point here is that neither Mindfang nor Vriska show any abilities that the other one lacks for sure.
Rose learned Void abilities. Clearly, corruption is possible.Yes, and what are clockwork majyyks? They're time abilities, and while they were taught to her by Doc Scratch, they were only able to be taught because she possessed the ability in the first place. Otherwise, everyone would be able to learn every ability that everyone else has.
Vision twofold is still genetic, however. And we know nothing about his personality. It's possible he is a stable chap with one set of moods that aren't going all over the place.Not many yellowbloods possessed vision twofold, too, along with looking exactly the same. It's more than just the fact that they have the same telekinesis abilities, it's the fact that everything about them was the same except for their situations.
HOPE isn't literal hope any more than LIGHT is literal light. It's more complicated than that, and game powers are involved.Eridan's attribute could be argued to be something that any troll could do, since it's just HOPE. It's the fact that he's fated to bring hopefulness or hopelessness to some force. The SCIENCE beams stands within something that we can't know since Dualscar always used Ahab's Crosshairs.
But again, abilities can change, or never materialize. The twenty-four are certainly very similar. But they're not identical and you can't say "Because one could do x, the other can too, or could have."She was a Legislacerator for a reason: because she knew how to manipulate criminals to her advantage, just like Terezi did when she FLARPed. Red Glare used her relatively unknown status to ambush Mindfang; she did something that nobody expected and she bypassed Mindfang's luck in doing so. It's the same as when Terezi got revenge on Vriska by telling Doc Scratch about the Cue Ball (Mindfang was in a situation where luck didn't matter), and when Mindfang escaped from the trial it's the same as when Vriska sought more revenge against Terezi.
Again, it's not just the abilities, it's the completely analogous nature of everything that they are.
All subjugglators seem to have Gamzee's power. There's nothing unique about this.What I meant was that that's how he brings about fear: through rage.
And yet at the same time they're the opposite of analogous. Similar powers, but one set of wings leads to wildly different results. It's like they're different people with different powers.This is another thing that we don't know. The Summoner could have had something with wings carrying him for all we know, or Tavros could have developed wings at some point. We don't know how the Summoner got those wings, and so we can't use it as an argument for one thing or the other. The abilities that they have shown to have in common were everything that Tavros had, though.
Uh, no she didn't. The last we hear about her, she was sold as a slave. Conveniently, there's a certain jadeblood slave Mindfang happens to pick up, who promptly is killed. By Dualscar. The circumstances are remarkably similar.Her ability should have been becoming a rainbow drinker, which we don't actually know if she did or not because she eventually died of old age while Kanaya was killed by Eridan. We don't know the conditions of becoming a rainbow drinker or if it even means you live forever.
Again, we can't assume that all their abilities are exactly the same. The Sufferer's thing is even described as a glitch, and is implied to be something that the pre-Scratch redbloods didn't have. Some other influence may have caused that, one that doesn't affect Karkat.
It's likely that if a trait of a player is strong enough, it's basically considered a 'genetic' trait of theirs in their post-Scratch counterpart. Uh, get what I'm saying?
Anyway, the Dolorosa wasn't the slave that Mindfang picked-up. At least if we're going by this page, which explicitly states that she spent the rest of her life as property of vicious sea dwellers. The only concession that I can make is that she might not have died of old age, but that doesn't change the fact that we don't know about her and rainbow drinkers.
Last edited by tangerine; 03-14-2012 at 02:12 AM.
You think that the physical trait was altered, but it might be more appropriate to say that they were always meant to have that trait. DESTINY. So you could say particular parts of a player's fate always carries over after a Scratch.
The Dolorosa was the slave Mindfang picked up. It's got the backing of the majority of the fanbase, and it makes sense when making connections between the ancestors. If what stops you from believing it is the use of the word 'sea dwellers', you're just being a bit too nitpicky. You could even think of Vriska as a sea dweller, in the sense that she spent most of her life at the point of time she acquired the Dolorosa as a slave sailing at sea, if it'd help you rationalize it.
As best I can tell, Mindfang lived in her boat, which would allow her, in the human sense, to be referred to as a seadweller, if not in the troll sense. We certainly do not have any concrete evidence for the Dolorosa being Mindfang's red interest that Dualscar had killed, but there is enough circumstantial evidence to allow for it to become a popular theory.
Eh, ninja'd, but I'll post it anyway.
A quote from Hussie about troll wings.Originally Posted by Andrew Hussie
And concerning the Dolorosa: If you refuse to believe it, then there's nothing else to talk about on this topic.
Your chumHandle is [COLOR="0,75,100"]carnackiArdent[/COLOR], and people should feel free to add you, even if you are kind of quiet on messenger programs.
"My mind is steel and lightning and opens to the sky. Poor insect, you dare speak to me about thinking?"
- Dr. Lupin Madblood, Narbonic
Mindfang got the slave from Dualscar. While it's not confirmed that the slave was the Dolorosa (or that she was a jadeblood, for that matter), I'd certainly say that's the implication, since every single significant troll character in Mindfang's journal excerpts and Scratch's storytelling is an ancestor. It would be odd for this to be the exception.
Also, I don't think we can say that Mindfang had any sort of "luck powers". She does mention that she used the cueball to "steal fortune" from her adversaries, though.
I kinda agree with tangerine. However, it wasn't exactly Hussie that was "using" that term. It was Doc Scratch when he "took over" the narrative. Still, it does seems a bit nit picky to categorize mindfang as a "sea-dweller" when it is used to specifically categorize a certain subgroup within the trollian race. Not to mention it is stated that she spends the rest of her life as property to them. She wouldn't be their "property" anymore if she became stolen,traded or sold. If she is said to spend the "rest of her life", meaning more likely she just died of old age rather than just being assassinated aka her life cut short. Sides, its possible that she could've come back as an undead/rainbow drinker.
So yeah, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that the slave Mindfang took wasn't Dolorossa.
Last edited by Omi; 03-14-2012 at 04:06 AM.
Well, I'm guessing the Dorolsa was the slave Mindfang was with, and when Dualscar came, Mindfang told him, or made out that it was a different slave, and that slave was killed, while the Dorolsa got away without anyone ever knowing. Just a theory...
IDE: The reason that Karkat is so angry all the time for seemingly no reason (as noted by himself in the latest pesterlogs) is because of the Vast Expletive. The lingering Psychic effects of the expletive are still ongoing and Karkat is subconsciously picking up on it (you'd be angry too if you were constantly hearing someone shout FFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKK" in your ears).
Without the context of the rest of our knowledge of the trolls' ancestors, though, it certainly wouldn't make sense to make that jump and say that the Dolorosa was Mindfang's slave. But with it, it becomes practically unavoidable. These twelve trolls' lives are closely connected; every significant figure in their lives that we're introduced to seems to have been one of the others, which of course makes perfect sense, because they serve as a sort of parallel to the trolls we know, in particular in the area of romance. The possibility of Mindfang Dolorosa? neatly parallels the possibility of Vriska Kanaya, much like Mindfang's former and potential kismeses Dualscar and Redglare parallel the caliginous figures in Vriska's life. And like I mentioned before, I'm pretty sure there isn't a single troll character in everything we've heard about the ancestors that's singled out as an individual (as opposed to, for example, the audience at Mindfang's trial) but is not an ancestor, with this one possible exception.
I guess what I'm saying with all of this is that it's STRONGLY HINTED that the slave was the Dolorosa. A lot of people assume that that was the case, and while we don't have absolute proof, I can't really blame them.
Of course, at the end of the day we don't know for sure. But this is why I think what I do, and I think at the very least it presents a strong case that the slave being the Dolorosa is highly plausible. I'm not sure how applicable that is to the argument that started this, but then I'm not really sure what that argument was actually about in the first place.
it started with this IDE that I posted. It comes with the implication that the Trolls and their ancestors share the same abilities, which lead to a discussion about whether that was true or not, which led to the bit that the Dolorosa played in it all to be expanded upon. I'd certainly be interested to see what you think about my IDE if you do decide to take a look at it.
Last edited by Legendary; 03-14-2012 at 05:17 AM.
All I'm saying is that, seeing as Doc Scratch is a man who at one point described an ectobiological sequence as being powerful enough to destroy itself, there's no point in saying "Doc Scratch doesn't lie, therefore sea dwellers = sea dwellers because he always tells the truth." It doesn't prove they're not sea dwellers. It simply proves the argument is invalid.