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Thread: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

  1. #2326
    Transmogrified Violaceae Nimz's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by brocoli View Post
    "My best friend's girl" on Karkat's wall is not a good sign. Nor is him talking in the same color as Dave.
    Huh. I didn't pay attention to the background posters. Silly, silly, silly, I know. But Karkat is actually talking in a colour slightly different than Dave's colour. Dave uses 0xe00707, while Karkat here is using 0xff0000. I'm not awake enough yet to reason out whether this is an ill omen, so I'll just smile and nod at the rest of jkkkkkkkhvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv,,,,,,,,,

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  2. #2327

    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by Conspicuous View Post
    Theory: Davesprite can be Kiss of Life merged into Alpha Dave

    Alternate selves have a pretty strange relationship to their Dream Selves.

    While none of the Beta Daves had their death affect his Dream Self, it's still implied that if Dave were to kill Felt Dave, he'd have ascended, using the Dream Self.
    Also, while Jade and Jadesprite became separate entities and Jade would have dreams in the Dreambubbles, rather than waking as her Dream Self, Jadesprite still functioned as a valid Dream Self for the purposes of ascension, merging Jade and Jadesprite's consciousnesses, establishing that disconnected selves are still linked.

    Since the Kiss of Life has a similar effect of merging living selves into Dreamselves and healing them, it's plausible to assume that the Kiss of Life would merge a Player into a disconnected Dream Self.
    If we assume that Alpha Dave still counts as his Dream Self after it became his last living self and ascended, it's possible that Davesprite could merge into Alpha Dave, drawing parallels to Alternate Future Rose and Jade.
    the beta dave would've been the one to ascend, throwing them into a doomed timeline. that, or you could say that then that dave would've become the alpha dave, but doomed timeline trumps that so...yea

    although that does make me think of something, alpha dave had to sleep at some point, dream self or not your body eventually gets tired, what do you think happened to his dream self if alpha dave at more than one point in his own timeline went to sleep at the same time on the regular timeline?

  3. #2328

    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    It's just so that we can distinguish between Dave and Karkat this way.

    Also, Karkat is a purer red than Dave is.
    RED PRIDE, BRO!

  4. #2329
    Your Freedom For THIS Beef The_Codfish's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Also, he speaks in all CAPS. So it's pretty hard to confuse the two.

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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by brocoli View Post
    He'll probably emerge as a dead god tier though, because his dream-self is dead, and his quest bed came from a dead land.
    The problem with this IDE is that God Tiers live forever unless they die in a heroic or just manner. If Karkat went God Tier at all then it's pretty much impossible for him not to be alive directly afterward, even if his dream self is already dead when he does because that would mean that he comes back to life right away.

    I realize that the IDE is based on him going into God Tier already dead, but the heroic/just conditions were stipulated to be the only ways that a God Tier can die, and so I doubt that it really matters how he becomes a God Tier.
    Last edited by tangerine; 03-12-2012 at 01:36 PM.

  6. #2331
    Prince of Doom NeoPhantom's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    My final theory concerning LE in AH´s domain:

    He is there to enlist RoboJack´s help, in the same way he enlists the help of all other followers. He will give RoboJack time-powers, which will counterbalance with BecNoir´s space-powers. As such, JackNoir´s three remaining variations will be: BecNoir, master of space, RoboJack, master of time, and the third one (the one who got KO´ed by WQ) will somehow go beyond the grid of space-time, becoming the void where such elements do not exist.

    LE will manage to bring RJ(RoboJack) to work for him by giving him the chance to kill AH and the new BQ (Condescence) who LE will refrain from saying is not the same BQ RJ knows...

  7. #2332
    Spacemonaut unbeliever536's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by tangerine View Post
    The problem with this IDE is that God Tiers live forever unless they die in a heroic or just manner. If Karkat went God Tier at all then it's pretty much impossible for him not to be alive directly afterward, even if his dream self is already dead when he does because that would mean that he comes back to life right away.

    I realize that the IDE is based on him going into God Tier already dead, but the heroic/just conditions were stipulated to be the only ways that a God Tier can die, and so I doubt that it really matters how he becomes a God Tier.
    Point:
    It might be possible to weasel out of that condition by saying that, since he's a Prospit dreamer, Karkat's ascension involves a merger, not a revival (Vriska, Jade, and John could all be said to have merged with their still-living dreamselves). Thus, Karkat is never "alive" and never needs to "die" to be dead. He just stays dead.

    Counterpoint:
    When Vriska talks to John after he gets shanked by Jack, she asks him if he's "still dead", implying that Godtier revival does involve a "being dead" step. Thus, Karkat should become a dead Godtier, trigger the "heroic/just" test, and revive, since it has been established that getting surprise-killed by Jack in order to heighten drama is not considered heroic or just.
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  8. #2333
    delicious tangerine's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by unbeliever536 View Post
    Point:
    It might be possible to weasel out of that condition by saying that, since he's a Prospit dreamer, Karkat's ascension involves a merger, not a revival (Vriska, Jade, and John could all be said to have merged with their still-living dreamselves). Thus, Karkat is never "alive" and never needs to "die" to be dead. He just stays dead.

    Counterpoint:
    When Vriska talks to John after he gets shanked by Jack, she asks him if he's "still dead", implying that Godtier revival does involve a "being dead" step. Thus, Karkat should become a dead Godtier, trigger the "heroic/just" test, and revive, since it has been established that getting surprise-killed by Jack in order to heighten drama is not considered heroic or just.
    The first point isn't valid since, again, it's been explicitly stated that the conditions for a God Tier to die are the heroic/just things. That means that those are the conditions for a God Tier death, including state of death to remain permanent. The point that you're making relies on a what-if scenario that assumes new information which completely contradicts what's already been established.

    The second point is sound since it's, essentially, exactly what I wrote in my previous post. That would mean that your counter-point to my point is countered by my initial point. These is a class-A point paradox or something.
    Last edited by tangerine; 03-12-2012 at 06:08 PM.

  9. #2334
    Knight of Mind The Mather1's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Theory: Hussie will wait until the moment John is about to break down to reveal that Vriska has been alive for the full three years of the journey, and he'll then point out in a Tumblr post that her body and the blood stain were missing from the zoomed-out shots of the meteor during its short stay at the Green Sun. Until then he'll only leave very minor clues, such as the tank that was supposed to hold Vriska never being shown more than as a thing that's just outside the frame and as small pieces of smashed eight-balls being barely visible in the background of some frames.
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  10. #2335
    Guide of Souls ponce's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mather1 View Post
    Theory: Hussie will wait until the moment John is about to break down to reveal that Vriska has been alive for the full three years of the journey, and he'll then point out in a Tumblr post that her body and the blood stain were missing from the zoomed-out shots of the meteor during its short stay at the Green Sun. Until then he'll only leave very minor clues, such as the tank that was supposed to hold Vriska never being shown more than as a thing that's just outside the frame and as small pieces of smashed eight-balls being barely visible in the background of some frames.
    I'm pretty sure someone will have told John in the three intervening years. Possibly Vriska herself, given that John's been entering dream bubbles when we sleeps.

  11. #2336

    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    And, you know, the fact that she appeared dead in a dream-bubble. That kinda clinches it, really.
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    Guide of Souls ponce's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    IDE: FUCK YEAH.

  13. #2338
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    IDE/Theory: Trolls' godtier wings reflect their horns, or their symbols, or something important to them:
    - Vriska's have spots like her Vision Eightfold
    - Aradia's just kind of have circles. Could be cycle-of-life-and-death thing, could just be the way her horns and/or the ends of her symbol curl around.
    - Doomed!Karkat: No wings visible. Three options here.
    - He doesn't have any, possibly due to his status as a mutant (Karkat seems unusually close to human for trolls - red blood, barely any horns. Maybe this is part of that). Alternatively, he has short stubby little ones that aren't visible and may or may not work anyway, just like his horns :P
    - He lost them somehow. IDK if this can even actually happen.
    - They're just hidden. Vriska's done that with her wings before, hasn't she? So it's probably a thing they can do. Most likely option by Occam's Razor, I guess.
    - Doomed Eridan: Big zig-zaggy suckers. Very much resemble his horns, though they could refer to his symbol (like his horns probably do in the first place). Incidentally kind of awesome, but I'm a sucker for dynamic purple shapes.
    - Doomed Feferi: Slender, swoopy ) ( shape, just like her horns and her symbol.
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  14. #2339
    beLIEve in me mas369's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    IDE: Karkat was serious when he said he was going to kill himself. Explanation from a post of mine from the Comic Discussion
    Quote Originally Posted by mas369 View Post
    The crisis he seems to be having, about the importance of his life and rather or not it even matters, along with the fact that the girl he once (thought he) loved (Terezi) might not even be paying attention to him anymore, and the other one he may have shown interest in (Jade) might never meet him, seems like good suicide fuel.
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  15. #2340
    Beats Wizard Fuzz's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    This is my theory about Dad,
    BOTH adoptive Dads are in fact colonel sassacre from the scratched universe and therefore the SAME PERSON.
    Firstly it would explain their design similarities without the neccessity of even considering ecto shenanigans.
    Where in the original universe colonel sassacre was killed by babyhass we currently have no frame of reference for scratched sassacre.
    There isnt a lot of evidence to support this theory, but i want to see if anyone can actually convincingly debunk it.

  16. #2341
    sad bug ghost deathsbuddy's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by mas369 View Post
    IDE: Karkat was serious when he said he was going to kill himself. Explanation from a post of mine from the Comic Discussion
    Wow, I seriously hope not. If this comic needs one thing, it is not depression-fueled suicide.

  17. #2342
    You think you're hot shit? colwag's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by deathsbuddy View Post
    Wow, I seriously hope not. If this comic needs one thing, it is not depression-fueled suicide.
    As someone who likes the darker and nastier twists like this, I support depression-fueled suicide.

  18. #2343
    Surprisingly, still not dead kaoticAntagonist's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    but if he commits suicide he knows where he will end up, and in his opinion its not that awesome.

    so why would he do it?

  19. #2344
    sad bug ghost deathsbuddy's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Also, I know people who read the comic who are triggered by depictions of suicide
    and for good reason
    so I'm happy that it would entertain you but it would actually make a lot of people miserable
    and not just in a superficial sense

  20. #2345
    Internet Normality The_Unoriginal's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by colwag View Post
    As someone who likes the darker and nastier twists like this, I support depression-fueled suicide.
    He will try, creating another doomed timeline due to LE having different plans for him or some other timey stuff.

  21. #2346

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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by kaoticAntagonist View Post
    but if he commits suicide he knows where he will end up, and in his opinion its not that awesome.

    so why would he do it?
    To play devil's advocate: why wouldn't he do it? He thinks that life has no meaning except to gather memories of the afterlife, and further the plans of inscrutable gods. He's not making any good memories on that meteor and fuck the inscrutable gods anyway.

    Not that I think there's any real chance of Karkat offing himself. Of course he's got to have a reflective philosophical period to prepare him for going all Widsom of Troll Jesus on everyone's ass.

  22. #2347
    Knight of Mind The Mather1's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by ponce View Post
    I'm pretty sure someone will have told John in the three intervening years. Possibly Vriska herself, given that John's been entering dream bubbles when we sleeps.
    I meant that she would be hiding, for the other characters as well. And why would she tell John she's not dead when to his knowledge, that was never a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberHeroine View Post
    And, you know, the fact that she appeared dead in a dream-bubble. That kinda clinches it, really.
    Could be an alt. timeline or her from between the stabbing and the resurrection.

    Hussie didn't need her dead, just out of the picture for a while. Also if she did stay dead, then he would have corrected the images where her corpse is missing by now.
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  23. #2348
    Can never stay mad at Cal/cats Nokob's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by Conspicuous View Post
    Theory: Davesprite can be Kiss of Life merged into Alpha Dave

    Alternate selves have a pretty strange relationship to their Dream Selves.

    While none of the Beta Daves had their death affect his Dream Self, it's still implied that if Dave were to kill Felt Dave, he'd have ascended, using the Dream Self.
    Also, while Jade and Jadesprite became separate entities and Jade would have dreams in the Dreambubbles, rather than waking as her Dream Self, Jadesprite still functioned as a valid Dream Self for the purposes of ascension, merging Jade and Jadesprite's consciousnesses, establishing that disconnected selves are still linked.

    Since the Kiss of Life has a similar effect of merging living selves into Dreamselves and healing them, it's plausible to assume that the Kiss of Life would merge a Player into a disconnected Dream Self.
    If we assume that Alpha Dave still counts as his Dream Self after it became his last living self and ascended, it's possible that Davesprite could merge into Alpha Dave, drawing parallels to Alternate Future Rose and Jade.
    This page shows two Dream Daves and two sleeping Daves, one of which is the doomed Felt Dave. So doomed Daves presumably have their own dreamselves.
    If Davesprite had a dreamself, it's probably dead now that Derse's moon is exploded.

    Although now that I think about it, I'm not really sure how that works. We know Equius and Eridan were awake when Derse was destroyed, right? So unless they never woke up, their dreamselves should just not have existed at that point. (I think the page I linked above does a pretty good job of proving that dreamselves disappear when not in use rather than being teleported to their tower or something.) So either their dreamselves were destroyed anyway or they died when their realselves died.
    Wait, we know Kanaya was awake when Prospit was destroyed because she was chainsawing Tavros's legs off. But we also know that her dreamself was dead before her realself was. And she definitely wasn't still asleep on Prospit. Hmmm. So maybe dreamselves do stick around when the realself wakes up, but Jade's glasses just don't count them when they're sleeping? But then where did John's dreamself go? Aargh, I don't know.

  24. #2349

    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Code:
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    And what of this?
    It relates to
    
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    The first question I ask myself is about how many universes there have been.
    I have seen no other sessions in the bubbles. This may be the result of the exact gate they have chosen to pass through. Every vertical line is a scratch and every horizontal line is a frog.



    As far as the meaning of death in homestuck, arguing that it is arbitrary is contradictive. The universe is using an arbitrary idea like death in order to end alt sessions. Usually, reality doesn't care if you die. In homestuck, sessions in which everyone is dead stop. This means that the universe is paying attention to your presence in it. At the moment you die, a record is kept of you in the form of a bubble. This means that a bubble is either a dormant universe or a hero storage device. If it is a hero storage device, then even your failures are important enough to keep and have some use. I don’t think it is a dormant universe because it doesn’t seem to have any substance to it. If the bubbles are not dormant universes, it means that the real universe is still out there somewhere. If all the bubbles are from the same universe, it means that the universe is resetting with slight differences resulting from time travel instead of stopping. So death is a sinking into pure nothing but a monster will make a copy of you! I don’t know if that would work outside of a universe. The space and time powers that involve altering details of the universe don’t work correctly. Maybe space death is real?
    Last edited by d2r123; 03-13-2012 at 03:52 AM.

  25. #2350
    Can never stay mad at Cal/cats Nokob's Avatar
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    Re: IDE/Theory Thread 23: The choicest of theories that money can buy

    Quote Originally Posted by Nokob View Post
    This page shows two Dream Daves and two sleeping Daves, one of which is the doomed Felt Dave. So doomed Daves presumably have their own dreamselves.
    If Davesprite had a dreamself, it's probably dead now that Derse's moon is exploded.

    Although now that I think about it, I'm not really sure how that works. We know Equius and Eridan were awake when Derse was destroyed, right? So unless they never woke up, their dreamselves should just not have existed at that point. (I think the page I linked above does a pretty good job of proving that dreamselves disappear when not in use rather than being teleported to their tower or something.) So either their dreamselves were destroyed anyway or they died when their realselves died.
    Wait, we know Kanaya was awake when Prospit was destroyed because she was chainsawing Tavros's legs off. But we also know that her dreamself was dead before her realself was. And she definitely wasn't still asleep on Prospit. Hmmm. So maybe dreamselves do stick around when the realself wakes up, but Jade's glasses just don't count them when they're sleeping? But then where did John's dreamself go? Aargh, I don't know.
    whoops completely forgot about this
    welp

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