IDE/Theory Thread 24: The Pink Moon's moon is Io

[Mr_Smitt]

IDE: Meenah's plan was to "survive" their scratch by dying

And with "survive" I mean "keep existing". The trail of thought behind this probably is: "If we are going to get erased from existence, might as well die and preserve ourselves in the dreambubbles"

Not only that, but I'm willing to be she went all Gamzee and personally killed most of the rest of the A1 players herself.

[IDSeeker]

Not only that, but I'm willing to be she went all Gamzee and personally killed most of the rest of the A1 players herself.

As any good Thief of Life would do

[unbeliever536]

Maybe she's taking up dreambubble space from people who otherwise would have had a spot? We haven't seen the minor trolls (Feferi, Eridan, Nepeta, Equius). Perhaps she 'stole' their places in Feferi's deal from those four trolls, passing them around to Aranea, ______, and ??????.

[Lime Paradox]

Maybe she's taking up dreambubble space from people who otherwise would have had a spot? We haven't seen the minor trolls (Feferi, Eridan, Nepeta, Equius). Perhaps she 'stole' their places in Feferi's deal from those four trolls, passing them around to Aranea, ______, and ??????.

...Except we did see Equius and Nepeta in Roxy: Sleepwalk. Technically we've seen Eridan and Feferi too, just not the ones from the main timeline.

[Legendary]

The only troll we haven't seen in some form this act is Tavros. For the record:

Aradia and Sollux - last at the Green Sun, Aradia's robots are in the big dream bubble
Karkat, Kanaya, Terezi - last during A6I2
Gamzee - last at the Green Sun, but known to be with the above, not Aradia and Sollux
Nepeta - Dreamself seen in Roxy: Sleepwalk
Vriska - Proposed to by Andrew
Equius - Seen in in the big dream bubble
Eridan and Feferi - God Tier selves helped heal WV

[unbeliever536]

...Except we did see Equius and Nepeta in Roxy: Sleepwalk. Technically we've seen Eridan and Feferi too, just not the ones from the main timeline.

Meant to say we haven't seen much of them. None of the trolls I mentioned has spoken since their death panel appeared. Every other troll has spoken in a dream sequence after death and/or is still alive. We have, in fact seen the alpha Feferi since she died (she showed up during Aradia's big Doc Scratch exposition, but didn't say anything), and we saw her speak in a dream bubble (before her on-screen death). The Dream Nepeta and Equius we saw were also presumably alpha by way of conservation of detail (though the Nepeta could reasonably not be). Anyway, my point is that all four trolls have been essentially absent from the narrative since the killing sprees.

On a totally unrelated point, it is 100% canon probable that the trolls entered out of sequence in a manner that goes beyond the dual-chain thing.

[Legendary]

Except when we see that very sequence from Aradia's perspective, we're told that she let Equius in first.

The timeline is a little tight, but it works like this:

Aradia connects to Equius. (see link)
His house starts collapsing due to all that bad juju from earlier.
Aradia enters the session in a quick and organized manner.
Vriska heads upstairs, but takes awhile to get to the laptop.

[azhdrake]

Ok, for people who are confused about the trolls entry order, here is a diagram. The numbers on the top are the team entry order, on the bottom whole group entry order.

And, what the heck, another one. Arrows are drawn between server and client, the numbers are whole group entry order.

[Axsisel]

Dave will slash Bro´s orange ballcap icon when they meet as a vengeance

[genteelGunslinger]

IDE/Theory: Page's learn and grow from being mentored from another, usually through rigorous training and hardships set by the teacher.

A Page is someone who serves and learns under a knight. The Page class in S___B is no different. However, it doesn't have to be a Knight. It can be anyone who is more powerful than the Page themself. The two examples we have, Tavros and Jake, have shown themselves to be very weak in comparison too their peers from the beginning. Both have had a much more powerful player who has had the desire of making them stronger. In Tavros' case, Vriska. She put him through the worst possibly hell in an attempt to make him stronger. From throwing him off a cliff, to trying to convince him to kill her. Sadly, he failed, and never actually grew to be stronger. Tavros can be our example of a failed Page. One who never learnt to be stronger, never took the lessons from their teacher, and thus never grew from it.

Jake has Dirk, who also desires to turn him into a killing machine. Dirkbot was designed to test him and too make him stronger. In the fight example we have, it is clear Dirkbot is the superior. And because Dirkbot is based off of Dirk, it can be assumed so is Dirk. Jake will no doubt continue to be tested by Dirk, and may prove to become stronger from it. Jake actually has the desire to become strong, so his chances are good.

So both Pages begin especially weak, and both have had some more powerful player take interest in improving their abilities in combat. With this in mind, the goal of the Page most likely is to become more powerful and battle-hardened through these especially difficult trials set before them. Maybe, even more powerful than their mentor. This could mean that the Page has the potential of becoming the most powerful class in the game.

(as a side note, there is evidence that the mentor has had a romantic interest in their pupil in both cases. But this could simply be coincidence, and isn't really part of my theory.)

[simon.clarkstone]

So both Pages begin especially weak, and both have had some more powerful player take interest in improving their abilities in combat. With this in mind, the goal of the Page most likely is to become more powerful and battle-hardened through these especially difficult trials set before them. Maybe, even more powerful than their mentor. This could mean that the Page has the potential of becoming the most powerful class in the game.

This was hinted at ages ago:

AA: y0u picked a t0ugh class tavr0s!
AA: n0ne 0f the really useful c0mbat abilities c0me int0 play until y0u reach a very high level
AA: but i supp0se it will be rewarding when y0u get there

[Conspicuous]

I don't really think Tavros ever counted as "weak", though.
We don't really know if the Page class is supposed to be weak physically, but we know Tavros' Animal Communion was powerful as fuck.

He commanded a First Guardian, after all.

[Velmen]

I don't really think Tavros ever counted as "weak", though.
We don't really know if the Page class is supposed to be weak physically, but we know Tavros' Animal Communion was powerful as fuck.

He commanded a First Guardian, after all.

Troll psychic abilities are pretty powerful.

And about the Page class, I'd always imagined both it and Maid to be more of a support class/role, what with the shared "serving" connotation. Not directly responsible for crazy DPS output, but augmenting the tide of a battle, whether it be indirect support via hindering of an enemy (ex: Aradiabots suppression/dampening of the Vast Glub during the BK battle), or some sort of buff/boost for one's allies (presumably something a Page might do).

[genteelGunslinger]

This was hinted at ages ago:

I had no idea this even existed. Nice catch.

Troll psychic abilities are pretty powerful.

And about the Page class, I'd always imagined both it and Maid to be more of a support class/role, what with the shared "serving" connotation. Not directly responsible for crazy DPS output, but augmenting the tide of a battle, whether it be indirect support via hindering of an enemy (ex: Aradiabots suppression/dampening of the Vast Glub during the BK battle), or some sort of buff/boost for one's allies (presumably something a Page might do).

Maybe they serve to support their teachers. Or complement their abilities in some way in battle. Become some sort of tag team.

[The_Codfish]

I don't really think Tavros ever counted as "weak", though.
We don't really know if the Page class is supposed to be weak physically, but we know Tavros' Animal Communion was powerful as fuck.

He commanded a First Guardian, after all.

Yeah, about this, I don't think Tavros ever commanded animals in the same way that Vriska controlled others. First off, when he uses his power, the word 'commune' is used. And secondly, when he used his psychic powers on Bec, he described his powers to Jade as 'talking to Bec and suggesting things for him to do'. Basically, Vriska was a mind controller while Tavros was an animal telepath.

Not that this changes anything since, as we've seen, all animals are pretty much congenial as fuck and would probably listen to anything Tavros told them to do. Except for maybe probably Gcat.

[FowlJ]

Yeah, about this, I don't think Tavros ever commanded animals in the same way that Vriska controlled others. First off, when he uses his power, the word 'commune' is used. And secondly, when he used his psychic powers on Bec, he described his powers to Jade as 'talking to Bec and suggesting things for him to do'. Basically, Vriska was a mind controller while Tavros was an animal telepath.

Not that this changes anything since, as we've seen, all animals are pretty much congenial as fuck and would probably listen to anything Tavros told them to do. Except for maybe probably Gcat.

Well, there's likely an element of commanding, since he controlled the enemies of the game, who were programmed to kill him and really had no reason not to.

[The_Codfish]

FowlJ: The Underlings aren't programmed? Sburb didn't create any of the things in the Incipisphere, it was just a gateway into it. The Underlings are dumb and they work under their instinct. The Imps, for instance, stopped fighting Gamzee when he acted friendly with them. They're probably naturally hostile, but if they're given a reason not to fight, they won't. That or it was the sopor slime Gamzee gave them...

There's also John and his Imps. Like how, before the Harleboss battle with the two Oil Ogres, one of them ran away in fear.

Besides, the Underlings don't seem to actively try and seek the Players out. It just seems like they randomly roam around the Land and attack anything they see. The only times they've ever specifically sought out the Players was when they were commanded to by a Denizen or when a Scratch was initiated (and in both circumstances, they were being commanded by a higher power; Hephaestus and, possibly, Skaia itself).

And like I said, Vriska manipulates while Tavros communes. The wording used to describe each one's individual psychic power is important.

[reignonyourparade]

It's possible that Tavros communing instead of controlling is simply a matter of choice: controlling might just seem too mean to him.

[unbeliever536]

So, we know Aspect plays a big role in how class powers manifest, right? I think it also has to do with particular responsibilities in game. For example, we know Space is tied in to frogs, and Time is responsible for dealing with offshoot timelines. Thus the following.

Theory: every aspect is associated with a particular role in game, affecting not just how class powers manifest but how they are used and what players do.

The clearest example (other than the two explicit ones) of this is Light, which I think is responsible for making sure that the alpha timeline goes the way it should. This is subtly different from Time, which deals with offshoot timelines, mostly by going back in time and preventing certain events from occurring. What Light does is prevent beta timelines from even existing. Consider the prototyping of Bec. Rose is reluctant to give John information that might cause him to create an offshoot timeline, but she does tell him enough to prevent a scenario that she knows will cause an offshoot. Similarly, Vriska consistently intervenes in the events that lead to the creation of Bec Noir, ensuring that they occur.

Breath is harder to figure, but based on what John and Tavros do, it could be related to acquiring allies for the main party. John is the first human the trolls talk to; he is the reason that Jade gives them a second chance, that Kanaya is willing to try to befriend Rose, and that Dave starts talking to Terezi. Tavros, meanwhile, got a whole army of underlings together to help out the troll party.

Mind's responsibilities probably relate to keeping individual party members under control. Terezi keeps Karkat sane and confident so that he can do what he needs to do, and she tries to prevent Vriska from going off and getting everybody killed challenging Jack.

Blood, by contrast, is about keeping relationships between party members under control, a la Karkat's romance advice.

Life seems pretty literal; the Hero of Life is tasked with ensuring the safety and continuation of party members' lives (or afterlives, if that's not possible).

Maybe Rage takes out party members who have become liabilities by abandoning their responsibilities? If I'm right about what Light is supposed to do, Vriska was pretty much about to do the exact opposite until Gamzee manipulated Terezi into killing her, and Eridan never seemed to be doing his job (whatever that was), and Gamzee was the reason he was there for Kanaya to surprise and chainsaw.

Void seems to be closely related to transportation. For example, Equius takes Aradia's body to her through LOCAS, and Roxy has that window thing going on.

I don't know what the other responsibilities would be, but we'll probably learn about everything except Doom watching the B2 session play out.

e:
Corollary: the trolls were, for the most part, good at their classes but bad with their aspects. The B1 humans were the opposite.

e2:
Yeah, commune/manipul8 is probably just how they describe their powers. However, it does tell you important things about how they use them. And how much can you separate how a psychic wants to use their powers from how much those powers can do? If Tavros deep down doesn't want to manipulate, would he even be able to?

[reignonyourparade]

Yeah, commune/manipul8 is probably just how they describe their powers. However, it does tell you important things about how they use them. And how much can you separate how a psychic wants to use their powers from how much those powers can do? If Tavros deep down doesn't want to manipulate, would he even be able to?

Well I think he "can" manipulate to the same degree that I "can" walk up to a stranger in the street and punch them in the face.

[Conspicuous]

Or he can manipulate in the same way the Exile Terminals work.

He gives suggestions and the recipient is strongly compelled to fulfil them.

[Dertdood]

Meant to say we haven't seen much of them. None of the trolls I mentioned has spoken since their death panel appeared. Every other troll has spoken in a dream sequence after death and/or is still alive. We have, in fact seen the alpha Feferi since she died (she showed up during Aradia's big Doc Scratch exposition, but didn't say anything), and we saw her speak in a dream bubble (before her on-screen death). The Dream Nepeta and Equius we saw were also presumably alpha by way of conservation of detail (though the Nepeta could reasonably not be). Anyway, my point is that all four trolls have been essentially absent from the narrative since the killing sprees.

On a totally unrelated point, it is 100% canon probable that the trolls entered out of sequence in a manner that goes beyond the dual-chain thing.

Feferi talked to jade after she died

[unbeliever536]

Feferi talked to jade after she died

Yes, but that was posted before her in-comic death by a couple of months. That's why I said "since their death panel appeared," not "since they died." I checked; that conversation is the last time we hear her speak outside of a walkaround. Later, [s] Kanaya: Return to the Core happens, and then Feferi dies. Since then, she has been seen twice (once was a non-alpha version) but has never spoken

Also, Conspicuous said a thing that makes a lot of sense.

[Vanymstorm]

Just a thought regarding the existence of multiple sessions per host world:

The question that arises is whether all player groups are the result of the usual paradox cloning process. That's an awful lot of meteor babies, and they'd be arriving in a pretty limited time span to start the game at the right time, so one would think not. Keep in mind that such a session wouldn't necessarily have to be null, though in the case of humanity I wager they'd be quite ill-prepared. But this raises certain other issues. For example, the issue of a scratch; if the player's don't come to Earth on meteors, there would be no way for Skaia to reshuffle them. Altering the course of "empty" meteors seems promising, as theoretically even a small change can alter quite a lot down the line, but both examples we've seen so far of a scratch seem engineered to defy this effect; anything not coming from outside is largely unchanged, even though the game's influence extends back millions of years. Then it occurs to me; what if they can't scratch at all?

[cyberHeroine]

It's already mentioned that everyone destined to play Sburb is created through ectobiology, if I recall.