IDE/Theory Thread 24: The Pink Moon's moon is Io

[Sparrowsmith]

yeah I realised that after posting and edited in a more apt response. My bad.

[NeoPhantom]

Time between the pre-existance of the Incisisphere and its lands and the World where the players live is irrelevant due to the many temporal anomalies that surround the creation of the Incisisphere. As such, the time-line of dreamers is not based on what time it is they are dreaming, but how much time they´ve been there.

So if Dirk is say exactly the same age as Jane in a point in the Past and both go to sleep, they could meet each other quite nicely in the Incisisphere even though they are in different times in Earth.

The lanterns seem to be directing toward the dream death of the players (minus Jane). First Jake, then Roxy and Dirk. The amount of time that goes between the first lantern extinguished and the rest is actually a variation caused by the difference in time between the players in question. Jake dies and Jane revives back in their year, then Dirk and Roxy dream die in their year in the future (several millions of years for the lanterns).

Also, we should consider that it is several millions of ¨salamander¨ years. If a dog has X number of years in one of our human years, how many years do salamanders accumulate for every one of our years? Has it been millions of years, or just a few hundred?

[Conspicuous]

Also, we should consider that it is several millions of ¨salamander¨ years. If a dog has X number of years in one of our human years, how many years do salamanders accumulate for every one of our years? Has it been millions of years, or just a few hundred?

A year isn't a variable unit of time. (Well, sorta, given the existence of leap-years and all that)
It would be the same for a salamander as it would be for a human, although session years don't necessarily have to equate to an earth year.

The entire concept of "dog-years" is incredibly useless, and only serves to make things more confusing.

[d2r123]

As support for the theory that the lands pop into existance in a manner that suggests a past, like loading a saved state, the bugs don't make any sence. Why are they still alive and why aren't there more of them?

[tangerine]

This isn't an IDE, but it's not really fit for the Simple Questions thread either, so I guess I'll ask it here:

There are non-alpha timelines, and some of them must involve copies of Doc Scratch. What can the non-alpha Scratches see? (If he can always see the Alpha timeline and nothing but the Alpha timeline, then the moment he finds himself in an offshoot, his omniscient "knowledge" will cease to be accurate.)

Sparrowsmith was wrong in his/her answer, and so I'll answer this for you.

Doc Scratch defines the Alpha timeline as boasting exclusive rights to both his birth and his death. His existence does not define the Alpha timeline, unlike what Sparrowsmith stated. This means that alternate timelines either don't have Doc Scratch in them because he was never born or they have an undying Doc Scratch. (This doesn't mean it's one or the other; it means both instances can be assumed to be true.)

Furthermore, he does not see the Alpha timeline and nothing but the Alpha timeline. He knows everything along his own timeline and what he has to do to ensure the success of the Alpha timeline, save for some black spots in his omniscience. These black spots can be off-shoot timelines (such as in his speculation of Vriska's fight with Jack) or they can be events which define the timeline in which he comes to exist in. This is demonstrated when he is contacted by Terezi and he is initially baffled as to how she had contacted him, only to figure it out a spit second after he asks her how it was possible. It is safe to assume that it is only during these black spots that Scratch can come into an off-shoot timeline (as he already knows everything else that he will do in order to ensure the success of the Alpha timeline), and it is also safe to assume that he will gain omniscience over those black spots and what follows them as encounters them, just as he did when Terezi contacted him, regardless of whether or not they become parts of off-shoot timelines.

If I were to guess as to what Doc Scratch would ultimately see in an off-shoot timeline, I would say that the time after his death in the Aplha timeline is a black spot and, as such, it would remain a black spot within all timelines. I'd think that he wouldn't know that he was in a doomed timeline because of this and he would still work toward his goal, because he still sees everything OTHER than the black spots which are necessary for the success of the Alpha timeline, only to realize that he has failed when he doesn't die at the proper time. He could also gain knowledge of being in a doomed timeline as soon as it happens, though, in which case he would dutifully live indefinitely because he can't summon Lord English within a doomed timeline.

[InvertedVoid]

IDE: The scarabs from behind the "great" that eat the cake are LoCaH's (anagram of LoHaC?) equivalent to the fireflies and hummingbirds. I saw this mentioned somewhere but I don't think I saw it in this thread.
And of course we have no idea what's up with the fireflies and hummingbirds. They could be immortal for all we know.

Theories:
Okay, so there's basically a couple of ways the lands could go. And these are what I've seen so far:
1. Regular old land naming. Boring because no pattern, and basically nobody believes it except the Xylophone fans.
2. First word is by regular old land naming, second word is a noble gas.
3. First word is burial structure, second word is noble gas. Boring because everywhere is dead, except, well, everywhere probably is.

So I guess my IDE is that, potentially, in a void session, the lands are developed as regular lands (or regular lands with a noble gas theme?) and then transform into the void lands at some point. Due to hijinks.
Jane's land is the former Land of Crops and Helium. Same initials, and one of the tablets mentioned a shift in consort culture from agriculture to burial structures.
whycantwehaveboth? Because we can.

[Daniel990]

Land of CRYPTS and Helium.

[ticktockCurator]

That....would actually be pretty cool, InvertedVoid.
Then we could have the like
Land of Puppets and Neon -> Land of Pyramids and Neon
Land of Misery and Xenon -> Land of Mausoleums and Xenon
Land of Technology and Krypton -> Land of Temples and Krypton
Yes yes this sounds good to me, then everyone can be happy and everything makes sense
right?

[reignonyourparade]

he would dutifully live indefinitely because he can't summon Lord English within a doomed timeline.

I'm pretty sure that doomed timelines simply cease to exist as soon as someone travels back in time to prevent said timeline. That was why future rose went to sleep before future dave went back in time to become davesprite. Presumably there's also something that eventually makes choice-based doomed timelines cease to exist eventually as well.

[mysteriousOutsider]

So I guess my IDE is that, potentially, in a void session, the lands are developed as regular lands (or regular lands with a noble gas theme?) and then transform into the void lands at some point. Due to hijinks.
Jane's land is the former Land of Crops and Helium. Same initials, and one of the tablets mentioned a shift in consort culture from agriculture to burial structures.
whycantwehaveboth? Because we can.

Yep, I also had the idea that the names of the lands changed when the mythology changed but then I only posted it other places

[The Mather1]

I'm pretty sure that doomed timelines simply cease to exist as soon as someone travels back in time to prevent said timeline. That was why future rose went to sleep before future dave went back in time to become davesprite. Presumably there's also something that eventually makes choice-based doomed timelines cease to exist eventually as well.

Well, a choice-based alternate future wouldn't exist in the A2 universe seeing as even they require temporal shenanigans to happen and thus affect the choice. The only weird timeline shit that happened there was the Felt intermission, and I'm pretty sure all the deviating timelines there were deleted by the release of temporal energy caused by Lord English's vault being destroyed by Slick opening it with Crowbar's crowbar.

[reignonyourparade]

Well, a choice-based alternate future wouldn't exist in the A2 universe seeing as even they require temporal shenanigans to happen and thus affect the choice. The only weird timeline shit that happened there was the Felt intermission, and I'm pretty sure all the deviating timelines there were deleted by the release of temporal energy caused by Lord English's vault being destroyed by Slick opening it with Crowbar's crowbar.

It's true that choice-based doomed timelines don't actually matter regarding Doc Scratch, I was simply noting that they presumably cease to exist at some point as well.

[Sparrowsmith]

Sparrowsmith was wrong in his/her answer, and so I'll answer this for you.

Doc Scratch defines the Alpha timeline as boasting exclusive rights to both his birth and his death. His existence does not define the Alpha timeline, unlike what Sparrowsmith stated. This means that alternate timelines either don't have Doc Scratch in them because he was never born or they have an undying Doc Scratch. (This doesn't mean it's one or the other; it means both instances can be assumed to be true.)

Furthermore, he does not see the Alpha timeline and nothing but the Alpha timeline. He knows everything along his own timeline and what he has to do to ensure the success of the Alpha timeline, save for some black spots in his omniscience. These black spots can be off-shoot timelines (such as in his speculation of Vriska's fight with Jack) or they can be events which define the timeline in which he comes to exist in. This is demonstrated when he is contacted by Terezi and he is initially baffled as to how she had contacted him, only to figure it out a spit second after he asks her how it was possible. It is safe to assume that it is only during these black spots that Scratch can come into an off-shoot timeline (as he already knows everything else that he will do in order to ensure the success of the Alpha timeline), and it is also safe to assume that he will gain omniscience over those black spots and what follows them as encounters them, just as he did when Terezi contacted him, regardless of whether or not they become parts of off-shoot timelines.

If I were to guess as to what Doc Scratch would ultimately see in an off-shoot timeline, I would say that the time after his death in the Aplha timeline is a black spot and, as such, it would remain a black spot within all timelines. I'd think that he wouldn't know that he was in a doomed timeline because of this and he would still work toward his goal, because he still sees everything OTHER than the black spots which are necessary for the success of the Alpha timeline, only to realize that he has failed when he doesn't die at the proper time. He could also gain knowledge of being in a doomed timeline as soon as it happens, though, in which case he would dutifully live indefinitely because he can't summon Lord English within a doomed timeline.

I fail to see how this is significantly different to what I said. I said an omniscient being would be unlikely to go into a doomed timeline because omniscience.
Also, Scratch doesn't summon LE, it's a bit more complicated than that. It would seem he hosts him AND summons him. This is why I said his existence defines the Alpha, because LE's existence defines the Alpha, and Scratch claimed near his introduction that he has never failed.
If that lack of failure applied to doomed timelines (I assumed it did) then his existence must also define the Alpha by proxy.
Further evidence: LE travels back in time upon his birth, but Scratch says he could end the universe in many different ways. If he failed (doom timeline) he would simply use another means to destroy the universe and hence summon/host ANOTHER LE... Which is impossible. So if Scratch fails, then he must not attempt to complete his mission.
But Scratch never fails his mission.
Therefore Scratch is never in a doomed timeline.

Don't make me go archive hunting I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

[InvertedVoid]

Theory: Okay, I did some logics, let's see how they work.

So we have no imps, that's an established thing. (Probably because the denizens make the imps, in order to provide players with a convenient resource and level grind supply and void sessions need none of that, but that's irrelevant). The important thing is no grist. Which means no alchemy, which means no crazy weapons, which means getting killed. Which can't really happen, can it.
Except, as I believe someone else pointed out here, the Gristwidget. Now, Jane has the gristwidget, along with a ginormous pile of boondollars. And where did she get the gristwidget and the cash from?
The Batterwitch.
Roxy and Dirk also have their appearifier and sendificator (and Jake's transmaterializer might just be BCCorp too). All from the batterwitch.

So then I thought about Rose's comment. The one about both sides working towards the same goal under the premise of being enemies.
I think that's pretty much a thing.

So then I thought, Lord English. This sort of means he's cooperating with the kids. And their goal is to escape Lord English. Which doesn't quite make sense.

So then I thought (yes, this is my only transition I'm using), Lord English's minions. They die when their term of service ends and end their term of service by dying. What if that's true for Lord English too? What if he's eaten all of the universes he needs to eat (He was already there!?!)? He's nearly completed his term of service. And all he has left to do is die.

Which does something.

Step three: profit. Yeah, I'm not quite sure how the last bit works. LE dying causes some sort of resolution for all parties involved?


And one last thing, based off of something from a ways back: Jade. Alchemize rifle && LOHAC. Get LE's canegun except with LOHAC instead of the green sun. Instant awesome.

IN SUMMARY: LE is sort of working with the kids in order to die, Streetsweeper && LOHAC = AWESOME

[Legendary]

I'm not entirely sure it's established that there will be no Underlings. Hemera is still alive and thus entirely capable of having them constructed. Jane hasn't seen any yet, but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The flash works better without their presence for now.

[tangerine]

I'm pretty sure that doomed timelines simply cease to exist as soon as someone travels back in time to prevent said timeline. That was why future rose went to sleep before future dave went back in time to become davesprite. Presumably there's also something that eventually makes choice-based doomed timelines cease to exist eventually as well.

... Yes? It's already in the name: Doomed Timeline. It's a timeline that's doomed. I used the word "indefinitely" because the timeline could end within a day or after millions of years for all we know. It's not like I wrote anything that goes against what you wrote.

I fail to see how this is significantly different to what I said. I said an omniscient being would be unlikely to go into a doomed timeline because omniscience.
Also, Scratch doesn't summon LE, it's a bit more complicated than that. It would seem he hosts him AND summons him. This is why I said his existence defines the Alpha, because LE's existence defines the Alpha, and Scratch claimed near his introduction that he has never failed.
If that lack of failure applied to doomed timelines (I assumed it did) then his existence must also define the Alpha by proxy.
Further evidence: LE travels back in time upon his birth, but Scratch says he could end the universe in many different ways. If he failed (doom timeline) he would simply use another means to destroy the universe and hence summon/host ANOTHER LE... Which is impossible. So if Scratch fails, then he must not attempt to complete his mission.
But Scratch never fails his mission.
Therefore Scratch is never in a doomed timeline.

Don't make me go archive hunting I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

This reply is so silly, so full of back-pedaling and so defensive of nothing. You originally wrote that his existence defines the Alpha timeline, then you wrote that he only exists within the A2 timeline. I corrected it because those statements are wrong. Don't try to justify wrong statements with implied meanings, because your statements were literal.

[Mikker]

I like how there being 4 lands with noble gasses kind of opens up for another 3 planets - X and Argon, X and Radon, and X and Ununoctium.

IDE/THEORY: UU's planet is LOUAU - land of Underhalls and Ununoctium.

[InvertedVoid]

I'm not entirely sure it's established that there will be no Underlings. Hemera is still alive and thus entirely capable of having them constructed. Jane hasn't seen any yet, but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The flash works better without their presence for now.

Hmm, true. I guess this will probably be resolved one way or another soon enough. If we don't see any within the next few pages on LOCAH then we can probably assume that if they are there, they at least aren't common.
Or they're hiding.


How long did it take for the first imp to show up for John?

[Stormspirit]

How long did it take for the first imp to show up for John?

Five seconds, top. As soon as his house was transported into the Medium, actually. The imps appeared under his bed.

[InvertedVoid]

IDE: The B2 session is basically EMPTY of everything that isn't critical to the final resolution of the plot.

No reckoning, no battlefield (anymore), no kings (anymore), no chess armies, no underlings (not confirmed as of yet), no consorts (anymore probably), no gates (maybe, but if no grist, house in pit instead of on tower, then probably), no Exiles (?), and so on.

Just Prospit and Derse, an empty Skaia, a mostly-useless Veil, and four dead lands.

Anything that can be removed from the session without causing more problems than it removes is gone.

Hussie means this whole ending this now bit.

[mysteriousOutsider]

Alright, so that last conversation with UU seems to be very strongly hinting that UU/uu are split personalities. (The only problem being that they supposedly have different blood colours? There are probably other problems.)

Since they dream on different moons, it seems pretty likely that they have two separate dreamselves which may be more pure embodiments of their respective personalities.

So here's a question: If you have two living dreamselves when you die on your quest bed, what happens? (What would have happened to Sollux?)

I think in this case, both would ascend and you'll end up with two god tiers, each with a single personality.

[reignonyourparade]

Well with sollux I think they both would have ended up merged into the same god-tier.

[Freack]

Well with sollux I think they both would have ended up merged into the same god-tier.

Sollux had a duality...thing, but he was almost certainly just the one Sollux. If UU/uu ends up hodtiering, I think they will "separate."
But I do not think this is a situation like that. It will be something much stranger.

[Pixie-elf]

Crackpot IDE: UU/uu are actually conjoined twins, with two heads. Only one of the brains can be 'awake' / in control of their body / bodies at a time.

[Blaperile]

IDE/Theory: UU and uu are, like said earlier by multiple persons, sharing the same real body but different dreamselves.

But uu just realized this fact and this is why he suddenly began making such a mess. UU still hasn't completely realized it.