IDE/Theory Thread 24: The Pink Moon's moon is Io

[Druplesnubb]

The scarabs can exist because they live underground and all life is only dead on the surface. Same reason as why there still exist flowers and young seed pods underground. Now the seed pods who still haven't run out of water despite how the salamanders haven't sent any of them up for millions of years is more interesting. Presumably they can grow on their own without the salamanders, just like the mushrooms of LoWaS also exist in the wild. But that means that the pod that the salamander cultivated flew away a long time ago and has been replaced by another one at the exact same spot. Which is still within the realm of possibility although it seems somewhat contrived to me.

[Legendary]

I'd like to point out that for those who think that Jane may not have Underlings that hers not showing up for a significant amount of time fits the pattern we've seen:

John's arrived instantly and started causing problems
Rose's gave her enough time to wander around her island for awhile
Dave's gave him enough time to dick around talking to people and have DD? show up
Jade's were considerate enough to let her have an extended nap in which Jack was unable to kill her

Jane would have an even longer wait, as would the other three, if this pattern continues.

[Blaperile]

I'd like to point out that for those who think that Jane may not have Underlings that hers not showing up for a significant amount of time fits the pattern we've seen:

John's arrived instantly and started causing problems
Rose's gave her enough time to wander around her island for awhile
Dave's gave him enough time to dick around talking to people and have DD? show up
Jade's were considerate enough to let her have an extended nap in which Jack was unable to kill her

Jane would have an even longer wait, as would the other three, if this pattern continues.

Hmm, good point there!

That could be, but I think it's just weird that she has already been exploring so much without being attacked.

I also have this feeling that it could just be because of Hemera's personality, or the conditions of the session that there are no Underlings (in her Land) at least.

[Conspicuous]

Hmm, good point there!

That could be, but I think it's just weird that she has already been exploring so much without being attacked.

Yes, but Hemera is waiting for her to arrive and talk to her.

That's kind of important to deal with before throwing enemies at her.

[cyberHeroine]

The imps are commissioned by Derse. Whether or not the Denizen has plans for the players is kind of irrelevant.

[Blaperile]

The imps are commissioned by Derse. Whether or not the Denizen has plans for the players is kind of irrelevant.

No. It's been said that the Denizens create the Underlings. Not Derse.

[LMLYP]

The underlings are created by the Denizen, on commission from Derse. I guess the Denizens aren't obeying the new queen? She's probably got drones to do the job anyway.

vvv yeah this vvv

[Conspicuous]

I'm pretty sure that Derse commissions them from the Denizens, so if Hemera doesn't want to, she can easily decide not to let them loose.

[cyberHeroine]

No. It's been said that the Denizens create the Underlings. Not Derse.

I didn't say they were created by Derse, I said they were commissioned. Most Underlings are under the employ of Derse.

It depends exactly how much choice the Denizen has over its contract with Derse, really.

[FowlJ]

I didn't say they were created by Derse, I said they were commissioned. Most Underlings are under the employ of Derse.

It depends exactly how much choice the Denizen has over its contract with Derse, really.

Well, unless the underlings are somehow automatically under Derse control, the denizens have an army to do their negotiations with, so probably a fair bit of choice.

[The_Codfish]

Specifically, Derse commissioned Typhon to create the Underlings (and we don't even know why he accepted if he's supposed to be 'helpful' to the Players; maybe he makes them to toughen the Players up or something, and since Skaia sends monsters to stop the Players from completing a Scratch, it makes sense to me). It's debatable whether or not the other Denizens are capable of creating Underlings themselves. I know we've got different types of Underlings tailored to each world, but it seems like each Denizen has a different function. Typhon makes Underlings. Cetus....don't know. Hephaestus uses the Forge. And Echidna does some kind of wish-deal thing.

Anyway, IF Typhon really is responsible for the creation of all Underlings, the B2 Kids may not even fight against Underlings until Jade and John arrive with their planets. The Condesce might send her drones instead, and maybe the Dersite army (considering that the Battlefield is gone, they might just fight on the Lands instead).

[Blaperile]

Specifically, Derse commissioned Typhon to create the Underlings (and we don't even know why he accepted if he's supposed to be 'helpful' to the Players; maybe he makes them to toughen the Players up or something, and since Skaia sends monsters to stop the Players from completing a Scratch, it makes sense to me). It's debatable whether or not the other Denizens are capable of creating Underlings themselves. I know we've got different types of Underlings tailored to each world, but it seems like each Denizen has a different function. Typhon makes Underlings. Cetus....don't know. Hephaestus uses the Forge. And Echidna does some kind of wish-deal thing.

Anyway, IF Typhon really is responsible for the creation of all Underlings, the B2 Kids may not even fight against Underlings until Jade and John arrive with their planets. The Condesce might send her drones instead, and maybe the Dersite army (considering that the Battlefield is gone, they might just fight on the Lands instead).

Remember that John's, Rose's, Dave's and Jade's Underlings are made from oil, chalk, amber and uranium respectively.

I personally think it's pretty likely that each Denizen creates his own Underlings with a certain material.

[The_Codfish]

Yeah, that's what I stated near the last part of my first paragraph.

Anyway, it could go either way with what we know right now. Typhon may just have some sort of alternate function that relates to Breath (he IS capable of controlling the Breeze).

[mysteriousOutsider]

Typheus.

It's Typheus.

[The_Codfish]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-

Got confused since it's Typhon on Wikipedia.

[Vanymstorm]

Specifically, Derse commissioned Typhon to create the Underlings

"When he was awake he was asked by some really terrible guys to commission a whole bunch of Underlings."

That phrasing, "was asked to commission," actually suggests something else altogether. To "commission" is to seek the services of another. It implies that a third party was to provide the Underlings, and Typheus was simply being persuaded to accept this service; one Derse may have availed themselves of as well.

Actually, I think it's more likely Echidna made them, being "Mother of all Monsters" and whatnot.

[The_Codfish]

Man, it's hard to remember these things when the information is in a Flash.

But yeah, just switch Typheus' name with Echidna and my statement of there being only one Denizen who makes Underlings still stands.

[Sparrowsmith]

This reply is so silly, so full of back-pedaling and so defensive of nothing. You originally wrote that his existence defines the Alpha timeline, then you wrote that he only exists within the A2 timeline. I corrected it because those statements are wrong. Don't try to justify wrong statements with implied meanings, because your statements were literal.

My statements are both literal and implied, as is often the case with Hussie. I built a deductive argument (definitely true if each of the reasons are true) based on things that an omniscient being has said.

Canon time:
"But it is not the only way to kill me.
It is simply a way I have suggested to you, which doubles as a way to disarm Jack, should you choose to go through with it.
Instances of myself have spawned in countless universes, and my objective is always the same.
I have never once failed to complete this objective, and I never will.
There is nothing noble about taking a course of action you believe would prevent his arrival, because that is impossible.
He will come.
In fact, he is already here." from http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005531
There are multiple ways to kill Scratch.
He never fails to summon LE
His death is a necessary part of summoning LE.

Therefore Scratch always dies and always summons LE
"The path which alone has my absolute mastery is the alpha timeline, a continuum I define as that which boasts exclusive rights both to my birth and to my death, two circumstantially simultaneous events." from here http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scr...p?s=6&p=005732
Any timeline where Scratch is born and dies must be the Alpha.

Therefore his death defines the Alpha.
Scratch always dies and summons LE (see above)

Ergo Scratch is always in the Alpha.

Additional evidence:
"The Condesce will serve as her new master's witch, carrying out his work in the places he cannot reach." from here http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scr...p?s=6&p=005970

There are places LE cannot go.
Inference: Scratch cannot go there either, or else The Condesce would be unnecessary. This is the only non-canon part of my entire argument.

Since Scratch and LE are always in the Alpha, the places that they cannot go to are places outside of the Alpha.

This is why I believe the question was a nonsense. Even if timelines do split around Scratch or LE, you don't double them up. You don't get doomed Scratch's or doomed LE's. It cannot be done. They belong in the Alpha and they stay in the Alpha, and we've only ever seen them in the Alpha.
The Alpha defines their existence, and vice versa.

The scarabs can exist because they live underground and all life is only dead on the surface. Same reason as why there still exist flowers and young seed pods underground. Now the seed pods who still haven't run out of water despite how the salamanders haven't sent any of them up for millions of years is more interesting. Presumably they can grow on their own without the salamanders, just like the mushrooms of LoWaS also exist in the wild. But that means that the pod that the salamander cultivated flew away a long time ago and has been replaced by another one at the exact same spot. Which is still within the realm of possibility although it seems somewhat contrived to me.

It's incredibly contrived. Even if the scarabs could survive, they were locked in that grating, just waiting to be released for the sake of a puzzle.

[InvertedVoid]

The scarabs could be immortal.

And also Skaia. Someone on Prospit could have seen that puzzle in the clouds and then told a salamander to set it up. That's probably how they found out that the nobles wouldn't be arriving for millions of years in the first place.

[Sparrowsmith]

The scarabs may well be immortal, that's what I meant when I said contrived. There are possible explanations, I just think they are implausible and kind of shakey.
Hussie has a tendency to foreshadow big deals in plain sight (seagulls -> Future Dirk on flooded Earth) so we shouldn't shrug off those scarabs. They are almost definitely the most important thing in all of Homestuck.

[InvertedVoid]

The scarabs may well be immortal, that's what I meant when I said contrived. There are possible explanations, I just think they are implausible and kind of shakey.
Hussie has a tendency to foreshadow big deals in plain sight (seagulls -> Future Dirk on flooded Earth) so we shouldn't shrug off those scarabs. They are almost definitely the most important thing in all of Homestuck.

You know what's funny is I thought those seagulls were pigeons.
And then I thought the flash meant that BC teleported Dirk and Roxy into the future.

I think for now I'm going to go with "The lands always existed ever since now."

[mysteriousOutsider]

As far as I'm concerned the only explanation the scarabs need is "adventure game".

[Vanymstorm]

It's incredibly contrived. Even if the scarabs could survive, they were locked in that grating, just waiting to be released for the sake of a puzzle.

And your point?
...
Okay, fine, how's this? The grate leads to a rudimentary sewer system. The scarabs can't burrow through rock, and are reluctant to emerge onto the surface. The grate was simply keeping them out of the room.

As for the pods, how do those even work? If it's contrived, it's simply because they are a contrivance. They do what they are designed to do. They don't run out of water because they are inexhaustible airborne water dispensers and I can't for the life of me find a good panel with the turtle shells on LOLAR doing the exact same thing but there's that too.

edit: Here we go.

[Nero11]

And your point?
...
Okay, fine, how's this? The grate leads to a rudimentary sewer system. The scarabs can't burrow through rock, and are reluctant to emerge onto the surface. The grate was simply keeping them out of the room.

As for the pods, how do those even work? If it's contrived, it's simply because they are a contrivance. They do what they are designed to do. They don't run out of water because they are inexhaustible airborne water dispensers and I can't for the life of me find a good panel with the turtle shells on LOLAR doing the exact same thing but there's that too.

edit: Here we go.

Wait wait, one thing: it was stated that the balloons run out of water and then float away making different from the shells. But since they obviously grow naturally I don't see what the problem would be.
Also, I don't think there are organical creatures named scarabs so I'm going to go with cake eating stone robot bugs, yeah.

Well there you go, I stand correct. I guess 3-second wikipedia checks are not the source of ultimate wisdom I thought them to be. It could still be talking about the amulet things though if you need to explain the contraption.

[Unclever title]

Also, I don't think there are organical creatures named scarabs so I'm going to go with cake eating stone robot bugs, yeah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarabaeidae

Seem pretty organic to me.