Homestuck TCG (Set 1: ARTISTS NEEDED | PESTERCHUM MEMOS AT 9 EST)

[DJ_Sucre]

I think something that would help me to know the costs on a bunch of stuff would be to know how much grist the average minion will drop.
I see the Black King in the rulesbook gives 1000, and is he supposed to be a harder monster?

Well, I guess I can BS some minion stats here real quick...

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Imp
90HP
5 DEF
0 MXY
5 GRT
200 Grist
Attack: 20 DMG

Basilisk
120 HP
0 DEF
3 MXY
15 GRT
500 Grist
Attack: 25, target cannot act next turn. (like when that basilisk almost ate john.)

Lich (EDIT: dropped from 140 HP to 100, because 20 defense is a lot.)
100 HP
20 DEF
3 MXY
0 GRT
500 Grist
Attack1: 25, Bleed
Attack2: 30

Carapacian Uprising
200 HP
X DEF
0 MXY
X GRT
500 Grist
Attack: Y Damage
X=HP/20
Y=HP/5

[rainbowAstronomer]

Well I wish I could contribute more, but I'm not all too knowledgeable in the ways of all this, been years since I played any physical card games. Here is my first character art though--Mr. Vantas.

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Had to change it a little once I realized the updated card template didn't really allow for much room, and I can still edit it in any way if needed (char.size, cleaning, weapon, whatever). It did give me a chance to work on backgrounds tho, and... eeeehhI guess its okay enough.

[Foerumokaz]

Umm, it'd be great if there could be more space above his head. But other than that, it looks great!

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[Systemic_Hysteria]

Looks good
Like Foerum said though, I think it needs to have a bit of space above his head.

Other important things:
- Ill be adding "Artist Cedit" to the cards.
- Adding some sort of card ID number. Including set # and card number.
- Created spreadsheet for Equip cards and Status Ailments.
- I made a collection of all our spreadsheets so far. It can be found here: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6t...jB4alc4dEZYeTg

Some things that we need help with right now are Minion Stats and Equipment Effects. So if anyone is interested in throwing around some ideas, please feel free to do so.

Edit: I've also made a simple turn order spreadsheet (It can be found in the link above.) It dictates the turn flow as well as describes what takes place during the phases. This is extremely tentative and will be worked out mostly through play-testing. For now, hopefully, it should help with card effects and people understanding of the game flow.

Also. I've been thinking about adding grist cost to epic equip cards. That would prevent them from coming into play too early, and allow different levels of strength.
Annndd. I really dig DJ's minion designs. I think we may need them to be a bit stronger though. Maybe not HP wise, but a slight damage increase. 15-20 DMG seems a bit low, considering some characters have 15 DEF.

[DJ_Sucre]

Minion Ideas:

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Uranium Imp
50 HP
10 DEF
0 MXY
5 GRT
200 Grist
Attack: 20
If this minion becomes the target of an attack, flip a coin. If heads, the attack hits a random target. If tails, the attack hits this minion.

Amber Imp:
90 HP
10 DEF
0 MXY
5 GRT
200 Grist
Attack: 15, Numb

Tar Imp
100 HP
0 DEF
1 MXY
10 GRT
200 Grist
Attack: 15, Paralyze

[rainbowAstronomer]

Ok, more space. Got it. *thumbs up*

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This enough, or too much?

[Foerumokaz]

I think that should be good

[Systemic_Hysteria]

Ok. Because we were discussing it in the Memo, I thought I would bring it up on the forum.
Foerum and I have reached another disagreement. This time on Turn Phases.

I feel that we should follow the standard Draw > Main1 > Battle > Main2 > End
Foerum, on the other hand wishes to consolidate it to Draw > Main (> End); Compacting the main and battle phases into one.

Under Foerums plan it would be possible to play Characters and Events in between attacks.
Where as with the standard TCG Phases, once you begin attacking cards are unable to be played until the second main phase.

In my opinion, I feel that without a structured phase order turns will become cluttered. It will also give the attacker a power bias, by allowing him/her to play cards during a battle, while the defender can not.


I would like the public's opinion on this, as it seems that Foerum and I will not come to a decision on our own.

[DJ_Sucre]

Well, in all honesty, it's almost like you get up to 3 different attack phases, if you have at least one character in each matespritship. I think that being able to play characters in between attacks might be a bit much, but I think it would add to strategy if events could be played as instants(MTG terminology there). Or perhaps certain events could be played as instants, allowing both the attacker and defender to respond, while others could only be played on your turn. (Instants and Sorceries in MTG-speak.) 'Cause it'd be super lame if you're like, "I attack the minion!" and your opponent is all like "lol he's already here now you fight the final boss lol"
Looking at the events that we currently have, I'd say the Porkhollow, the Bucket Barrage, Kernel Switch, and Grist Torrent would be instants, because they seem like cards that if played right, could really mess with people.
All in all, I'd say (although I'm not sure if this is more complicated or not) DRAW > MAIN > COMBAT > INTERMISSION (you can play events, not characters) > repeat combat for as many times as you can > end

SCENARIO: I have 1 filled matespritship at the beginning of my turn. I draw. I play a character into an empty matespritship. (Now, I'm assuming that characters can attack the turn they are played) Then I declare Combat phase. MSship1 attacks the minion. damage, effects, blah blah. Then, I can play events in betwwen the time MSship1 and 2 attack. I play the Kiss of Life, but the opponent responds with a Grist Torrent, forcing me to pay an extra half the cost to him. I lack the requisite Grist, causing my card to fizzle. then MSship 2 attacks one of my opponent's MSships. the opponent responds by playing a Porkhollow, and draws 2 more cards. damage, effects, blah blah. I have no more valid attackers, so I end my turn.

Of course, this is just how I see gameplay panning out. If I'm incorrect in any way, please correct me.
haha, this is a real travesty if I can't afford 750 grist, but my opponent just burned 1750. Either I'm savin' up for something, or I'm getting dominated. Oh well. Purely Hypothetical.

We need counterspells.

[Staff Deployment]

background's great (though i am a huge sucker for that kinda style)
pose is weird (he's all hunched up shoulder-wise and his right arm bends at an odd angle)

...

also he needs to be winking at the camera and giving a 'peace' sign with his hand, also the cancer symbol should be replaced with an image of his face, also he must be carrying a valentine's day card instead of a sickle. Also his horns should be huge. Like dwarfing his head.

i am so completely serious look into my eyes, are these the eyes of some idiot joking around or are they the eyes of a serious person (serious person eyes)

[rainbowAstronomer]

BLUH this is like the 5th time I have posted a variant of this image on this site. I would be sick of Kar if I didn't love him so much.

Okay so here is my original layout of the pic, before various and obvious changes were made (mspaforumiamsosorryforcloggingupallthisspacewith thesamepic):

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His right arm is slightly bent because he is holding his other sickle downwards, and he's hunched because he's walking angrily down the path. I consider him a guy who would be hunched a lot due to all that pent-up (or maybe not-so-pent-up) brain rage. And Crabdadsprite is probably yaking in his ear so yeah that would probably make him angrier. He also may or may not be about to attack something.

Also do not think I did not previously and quite seriously consider such awe-inspiring changes to this pic. That sickle was very close to being replaced with a John plushie, even though he hates cute things and obviously had no idea who the hell John was at that time or even what a human was anyway.

[Foerumokaz]

Welp, I finally decided to man up and finish up some more cards, so:

John Egbert

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and Karkat Vantas

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(I'm sorry if I cut out too much crabdad)

As for instants, I think they would be rather useful. It would make sense for some of them to be considered instants already, as Grist Torrent can only be activated after an opponent activates an event. This would also alleviate the problem of the attacker having a power bias (Although not completely, as the turn player should always have an upper hand). As for signifying what an instant would be as opposed to a normal event; would we differentiate with possibly a symbol in a corner of the event?

And as for my side of the debate about turn order; I feel that one of the smartest ways to handle the turn would probably be to allow the player to do actions in whatever order they wanted. This would help eliminate bad situations that players find themselves in, either by forgetting to activate a card or even game mechanics forcing them into a tight spot.

Sucre, I wish that you could interact in memos more often! You seem to really care about this game and you're always furthering ideas! Only a few more weeks and the memos will be able to go on for longer stretches of time.

One last quick update, I decided on effects for Aradia GT. Systemic, you can review them and add any little notes off to the side. (I also left MXY blank for you to fill in)

Oh, and by the way, Systemic, this is for you.

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[rainbowAstronomer]

No wait why did you use the unshaded version with less background and shitty crabdad i drew him better in another layer whhhhy
*gross sobbing*
Dang I knew I should have kept it the same the first time around but oh well crabdadsprite made it in uuugh i need to stop critisizing my own art uuuuaah that card is beautiful.

[Systemic_Hysteria]

All right. I can see where you are going with the turn layout. Why not have the status ailments resolve after a players turn though? That would make it much more accurate, instead of hapening after the minions have already attacked.

Edit: Hold off on making cards for a while, Im going to adding an artist credit area and a few other things.

[DJ_Sucre]

I'm fine communicating over the boards. I usually like to do my thinking in chunks like this.

I think the instant symbol should be a bit more conspicuous. Maybe a keyword on the event itself? like, Abjure? Abrupt? Argue? You can come up with something I'm sure.

Anyway. I was trying to find a compromise between the two systems you both suggested. I see where you're coming from, Foerum, I've been in plenty of situations (at least in MTG) where I forgot something, but the general rule in my house was "if you didn't say it, it didn't happen." Freedom is nice, Structure is nice, and that's why I suggested that Before attacks you can Armamentify (Play Characters, Equipment, and any Events, and activate effects), During attacks you can Artillirate (play Instants) Inbetween attacks you can Arsenalize (play any Event or activate effects) and after all your attacks are done, you can Armamentify again. (I really just wanted to use the ridiculous AR-words from the Jade vs. Bec flash.)

So in a maybe not so confusing way:
It comes down to WHEN you take actions. (I'm assuming you can only play one character from hand per turn)
Pre-Combat: All Cards/Abilities are Valid, so long as they have a target.
Combat: Instants and Certain abilities
Mid-Combat: Events and Abilities
Post-Combat: All Cards/Abilities are valid, so long as they have a target.

The main reason I don't let characters be played Mid-Combat is because that could get a little crazy. "ok, I attack with karkat. damage, etc. then I play Jake into this MSship with sollux, and search my deck for another Jake and put him in the MSship with Karkat, and now that Jake attacks. damage, etc. and now Sollux attacks." It just could get a little hectic and/or Overpowered.

While it is still essentially a Main1-Combat-Main2 style, you still get quite a bit of control of the battle flow while still having a structure. As for your opponent being severely underpowered... well, that's what more instants would be for.
Also, this would all need to be ironed out with play-testing, just to see what works or not.
Guaranteed, however, some people will just resort to the Main1->Combat->Main2 style of play, Which is perfectly fine! right?

Looking at some of the abilities... Rose's attack count as combat? Does it get activated before or after damage is assigned?
When does Kanaya's ability take effect? at the beginning or end of turn? oh wait I just read Systemic's post right above mine. So status and things resolve at end of turn? If needed you can just use counters to keep track of status timers and things like Kanaya's ability.

[Foerumokaz]

I like Sucre's compromise. It feels like exactly how I'd want fighting to go, now that I think about it.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh rA, I didn't realize that wasn't the final Karkat!! I thought you had revised the other Karkat and decided to add crabdad in! ^_^
When I get the new templates I'll switch the picture. Don't worry.

This is a question to artists; When we put your name on the card, would you guys rather we use your real name or your online name?

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[Systemic_Hysteria]

I also like Sucre's idea. I think we should adopt it until we finalize turn phases during play testing.

Edit. @Sucre.
We've been going back and forth on when things should resolve as well.
I think that stuff should hapen at the end of the players turn. While Foerum feels that all things should take place and increment after minion attacks. (And since he wants 2 minion attacks per turn cycle, effects would resolve twice per turn cycle.)

[DJ_Sucre]

Hm. Okay. My only issue is that with attacks like Gamzee's "can only be used every other minion attack", that essentially means he can use it every turn, and Jades "can only be used every 3 minion attacks" can be used every other turn, unless I'm reading it wrong.
Also, you might wanna edit Gamzee's Prototype effect. It'll be really one-sided. A-la, (My turn->Minion attacks normal->Your turn->Minion attacks Dizzy) ad infinitum. one of my MSships is getting dizzied every turn... unless that was the plan? (and yea, there's moxy and what not, but still.) If it was intended to go back and forth, you should make it every 3 minion attacks, otherwise, ignore this rant.
And then Kanaya's Matriorb would hatch when the turn passes to your opponent? I suppose that works, so you don't get to swing with the character you just brought into play, unless we can do that anyway...
I do agree that the minions should get an attack in between the players, so it seems like they's fighting both parties equally, while still getting counter-attacked and steadily beaten to a pulp. But having resolution of effects and ailments revolve around the minion attacks, I'm not so sure about.
Beginning of turn, maybe? (darn you MTG and giving me all my ideas!) although that might get confusing as well...
EDIT: spoilering this because of Wall-O-Text.

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EFFECTS RESOLVING WITH MINION ATTACKS SCENARIO: I have Karkat(90/125) inflicted with bleeding, Kanaya(30/90)/Matriorb Token w/2 counters left(idk the stats), and Rose(85/90) who has put a card in limbo that I should be getting next turn. My opponent passes the turn. The minion attacks Rose, deals 15 damage, takes 5 damage, and then effects resolve. Karkat takes 10 Bleeding damage, and the Matriorb loses one counter. Then as my turn starts I pick up Rose's limbo card, draw my card for the turn, and proceed. Karkat attacks, takes some counter damage bringing him to 70/125. Rose attacks, takes counter damage putting her at 75/90 and putting a card into limbo. I pass the turn. Minion attacks the Opponent. Then Karkat takes 10 bleeding damage, Bleeding wears off, I remove the last counter from my Matriorb, bringing Equius into play with Kanaya. My opponent resolves whatever he needs to and begins his turn.

EFFECTS RESOLVING BEGINNING OF TURN SCENARIO: Karkat bleeding, Kanaya/Matriorb, Rose w/ limbo card. Opponent passes. Minion attacks Rose. Damage. My turn begins, Karkat takes bleeding damage, Matriorb loses counter, take Rose's card, Draw card, begin turn.

Essentially the same, but with the beginning of turn scenario, only your effects would resolve. So if we continue Scenario B:

I do whatever I do, karkat takes some counter damage bringing him to 70/125, Rose puts another card in limbo and takes some counter damage bringing her to 75/90. I pass my turn. the minion swings at my opponent. Opponent's Turn. He does whatever he does. Minion attacks, Kanaya gets punched in the face. bringing her to 20/90. My turn begins, Karkat takes bleeding, bleeding wears off, the last matriorb token is removed, I search my deck for Equius and attach him to Kanaya, because he wasn't in play at the "Beginning" of my turn, his effect doesn't trigger, I get rose's limbo card, and draw my card and proceed.

So, things go a bit slower if we base things off of Beginning of turn rather than Minion attacks. Sorry about this being so long, I like to see scenarios and how things will actually play out, even though I'm afraid I get the turn flow really wrong sometimes.

TL;DR: this is just scenarios. You can choose whatever you'd like, because even I'm not sure what would be better.

[Systemic_Hysteria]

Hey, Sucre. Since you seem to be online, any chance we could chat about the game through PC?
My handle is gradientOverlay.

[rainbowAstronomer]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh rA, I didn't realize that wasn't the final Karkat!! I thought you had revised the other Karkat and decided to add crabdad in! ^_^
When I get the new templates I'll switch the picture. Don't worry.

This is a question to artists; When we put your name on the card, would you guys rather we use your real name or your online name?

LOL, That's okay! Personally I like Crabdad in there but I just put that particular ver. up to explain my posing choice to staff deployment. Here, use this compromise so you can use it with the new template. If it doesn't work u can just use any other thats suitable in my photobucket (there are 5 of them now so yeah 80 )

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Also I decided to put up this Eridan concept now, to see if anyone thinks any changes should be made beforehand like pose or positioning; that would make it easier so I don't have to worry about editing the finished product so much.

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And as far as crediting our names on the cards go, I think I *would* like having my real name on there. But if the others would rather have their usernames or any other handle on there, I'm okay with whatever the others want. Or, like, if some don't want their real name and some do, each could be whatever the person wants? I guess really it's just up to personal preference :I

[Foerumokaz]

You are reading Jade's effect correctly; essentially, if she is healing herself, she any only attacks every other turn. That was the intended effect. As for Gamzee's prototype effect, it isn't really one-sided. Because minions attack both players during every attack, neither player really gains any advantage off of it.

I think I understand what you're saying with the scenarios, but I don't really agree with your point. This game is already a relatively slow game (because of all of the minions) and it really needs the extra boost to make it go quicker. But I love that you're taking the time to go and make up scenarios.

As for the Eridan, it'd probably be better if the picture was flipped horizontally because the card mostly cuts off the right side of the image. Signatures should also be placed on the left side, preferably closer to the main point of the image because of this.

Sucre, would you be interested in joining the Homestuck TCG Design and Concept Team?

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[DJ_Sucre]

the minions attack twice per round? or it's completely random who they attack? See, I was assuming that it was sort of a one way exchange, like P1->Minion attacks P1-> P2-> Minion attacks P2, or something like that. But that changes things if it's random... We could go with having the "upkeep" phase at the end of minion attacks, and see what happens.

@Systemic, My shift at work usually goes from 4-10 (posting at 6 for reference), it just so happened that this week I got lucky and they scheduled me 7-10 for Wed, Thu, Fri. So... Weekends are still the most viable option for me. But, I've added you on pesterchum anyways. I'm usually on as azureAvenger, but I'll switch to culinaryTroubadour sometimes.

@Foerum, Well, considering we 3 are the main ones talking about the design/concept, why the heck not? Also, sorry if my scenarios aren't super clear. I just like to type them out. I always assume I have at least 3 things wrong with turn flow anyways, so...

[Foerumokaz]

It goes P1>M attacks both P1 and P2>P2>M attacks both P1 and P2

[DJ_Sucre]

Okay. That changes things a bit.
So, yeah. we can go with the "resolve after Minion attacks" thing, and see how that works out.

[Systemic_Hysteria]

Why not just resolve at the end of the players turn though?

My thinking is.
- Drop the minion turns down to 1. So it goes P1 > P2 > M.
- Increase the number on minions out at once to 2. Have a new minion appear every minion turn (Max 2).
- Effects resolve and increment at the end of the Affected's turn. (Be it player or minion)

That would quicken the pace of the game, allow for accurate incrementing and timing, and simplify gameplay. It would change the feel of minions, but I think it would be for the better.