jai lbrak

[bloodyEmissary]

I was actually shocked that some of the stuff I'd taken for granted/as a baseline were not being put into extensive/excessive practice by the mainstream (inequality and discrimination is still alive, it's just so sick that it mostly manifests itself in very subtle forms that require some knowledge in order to spot).

Yes, yes, yes, this forever.
I am still having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that my peers actually do not have basic reading comprehension and logic skills.

At the beginning of the year, we had to read "The Flowers" in English class. Before we began reading, the teacher told us that there was 'a little more depth to it than you'd see at first', so as I was reading I started thinking of ways that the opening description could be a metaphor for the little girl being blind or some other explanation that was kind of stretching it.
As it turned out, the 'depth' was the fact that the girl had found a skeleton who had been hanged--which took the class three readthroughs to figure out. I was practically banging my head on my desk by the time class was over.

Edit:

if the population in general knew how (and wanted) to evaluate their claims critically then they would have no incentive to put forth irrational claims

all these things could be fixed

/DREAMS

No, no, no.
You see, it's harder to trick people into doing what you want if they question you at all.

[User 18]

Yes, yes, yes, this forever.
I am still having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that my peers actually do not have basic reading comprehension and logic skills.

At the beginning of the year, we had to read "The Flowers" in English class. Before we began reading, the teacher told us that there was 'a little more depth to it than you'd see at first', so as I was reading I started thinking of ways that the opening description could be a metaphor for the little girl being blind or some other explanation that was kind of stretching it.
As it turned out, the 'depth' was the fact that the girl had found a skeleton who had been hanged--which took the class three readthroughs to figure out. I was practically banging my head on my desk by the time class was over.

What I want to know is how you miss that she found the skeleton of an hanged man. What else could it be?

I can see, on the other hand, how you saw the girl could be blind.

[bloodyEmissary]

What I want to know is how you miss that she found the skeleton of an hanged man. What else could it be?

I can see, on the other hand, how you saw the girl could be blind.

No, I got that on the first readthrough. But I thought it might have been part of the whole metaphor about blindness.

The class as a whole did not figure it out until the teacher gave up and just told us that it was a skeleton, which was the supposed 'hidden depth'.

[Wessolf27]

I recognize this, but at the same time it's a really awful idea to try to make people learn stuff that they have no interest in and that are never going to help them directly in their field, except possibly tangentially. Mostly, you are just wasting a lot of their time.

(These are only part of my ideas, but my main ones are the sort that wouldn't work too well in practice.)

Maybe, but that might just be me coming from a school that emphasizes a more hollistic development of a person. Philosophy is something that I've been studying for a while, and I believe that it gives people a certain grounding on how to approach their work and life, more like a method of preparation really, in that it takes a step back to reflect and try to understand what you're trying to get at and what effects those actions might deal in the long run.

And I believe that the best thing one can do is to let students learn certain basic things that everyone needs to know (at least within the context of their culture and environment) then after a while, give children the opportunity for them to decide the sort of lessons that they want to have.

I'm not discounting the fact that it is awful to force students to study what they dislike, but at the same time, it's also important for them to study things that might be vital to them in the long run, even if they don't seem to be useful in the first place. The question might be more like "To what extent should a uniform level of education be given?"

At the very least, let them have one course of each as if to give them a taste of each subject before giving them the reins to choose since sometimes what one might dislike might just be because they've never tried it in the first place.

[User 18]

No, I got that on the first readthrough. But I thought it might have been part of the whole metaphor about blindness.

The class as a whole did not figure it out until the teacher gave up and just told us that it was a skeleton, which was the supposed 'hidden depth'.

I didn't mean you as you, I meant you as in a generic person.

[Arson'sASport]

ahahahaaaaaahahahahahaHAHAHA depth.
Fuck, now I want to try reading that.
Also, night.

[Kíeros]

No, no, no. You see, it's harder to trick people into doing what you want if they question you at all.

Are you sure about that? You're not just trying to trick me into believing that, right? Right?

[P_equals_NP]

show spoiler

hide spoiler

Maybe, but that might just be me coming from a school that emphasizes a more hollistic development of a person. Philosophy is something that I've been studying for a while, and I believe that it gives people a certain grounding on how to approach their work and life, more like a method of preparation really, in that it takes a step back to reflect and try to understand what you're trying to get at and what effects those actions might deal in the long run.

And I believe that the best thing one can do is to let students learn certain basic things that everyone needs to know (at least within the context of their culture and environment) then after a while, give children the opportunity for them to decide the sort of lessons that they want to have.

I'm not discounting the fact that it is awful to force students to study what they dislike, but at the same time, it's also important for them to study things that might be vital to them in the long run, even if they don't seem to be useful in the first place. The question might be more like "To what extent should a uniform level of education be given?"

At the very least, let them have one course of each as if to give them a taste of each subject before giving them the reins to choose since sometimes what one might dislike might just be because they've never tried it in the first place.

I feel like the different ways of thinking that you can gather from a class like philosophy or the ilk and how they are helpful should be studied, and distilled into its own separate thing if you want to do that instead of having them take a bunch of random classes in different fields, most of which they are never actually going to use. My view on early schooling is that it should teach the essentials, how to think critically, how to write and read, and how to perform basic arithmetic and the ilk, and that from then on there should be some mechanism to help them figure out what they want to study afterwards, but I don't think you should make everyone learn biology or medieval history to do it.

[wrinklefudger]

What I want to know is how you miss that she found the skeleton of an hanged man. What else could it be?

I can see, on the other hand, how you saw the girl could be blind.

there are just some people who can't see the obvious until you shove it in their face. When my parents saw the last harry potter movie, they thought that Snape was Harry's father, even when I insisted that they were wrong. I sort of inherited it, I though BQ was BC until someone pointed out "you have condy and snowman mixed up"

[bloodyEmissary]

I didn't mean you as you, I meant you as in a generic person.

Oh.
BUT YES NEITHER COULD I
I mean, jesus christ a six-year-old could figure that out

[mysteriousOutsider]

No, no, no.
You see, it's harder to trick people into doing what you want if they question you at all.

But if people question you then you have to come up with a stronger argument and if you have a stronger argument then you can convince EVERYONE and there will be no dissenters ever.

see you have to think these things through

[P_equals_NP]

But what if there is no stronger argument and they are right and you ARE just being self-serving? WHAT THEN.

[mysteriousOutsider]

But what if there is no stronger argument and they are right and you ARE just being self-serving? WHAT THEN.

At that point I will stop intentionally missing the point.

also mind control

I'm not sure what I'm even saying anymore, the irony got away from me

[Wessolf27]

I feel like the different ways of thinking that you can gather from a class like philosophy or the ilk and how they are helpful should be studied, and distilled into its own separate thing if you want to do that instead of having them take a bunch of random classes in different fields, most of which they are never actually going to use. My view on early schooling is that it should teach the essentials, how to think critically, how to write and read, and how to perform basic arithmetic and the ilk, and that from then on there should be some mechanism to help them figure out what they want to study afterwards, but I don't think you should make everyone learn biology or medieval history to do it.

Well, it's more like giving these lessons a chance. A mechanism for enabling people to choose their course is kinda shaky because it relies on some sort of machine that is built based on a single idea that might not be able to account what a person might really want. And even then, I think it's more of the fact that it would be more useful for people to be able to decide their course after they've tried a little of everything (though that "everything might be more of certain subjects like art, history and the like) maybe for a week, maybe for a month, not the whole year definitely.

Along with that, people can change minds on what they want to study because they weren't sure if they wanted a certain course or not. So it is important that they would be able to switch and/or try out different things before choosing the courses that they want. Of course, that might have to account for the problems concerning the order of people and other stuff but that's another matter.

Enabling people to think is important, but I believe that giving others the opportunity to test and try things is equally important before settling down to a certain groove.

[P_equals_NP]

"Mechanism" here is not a physical machine type thing, it just means some kind of system designed to expose people to different types of studies and subject material, hopefully broadly enough so that people can get into somethng that really suits them (to be honest, the fact that our current system can do this to any degree at all baffles me). Anyway though yeah I'm totally up for having a bunch of different stuff available for them to try out, but I think rigorously enforcing a few arbitrary forms of specific subject material is kind of weak. That's why I hate mandatory gen eds. Yeah that's right, it turns out, that's what this whole shpeal is about. Me raging at everything that has ever made me take a chemistry class ever. HYARGGHHH.

[Wessolf27]

"Mechanism" here is not a physical machine type thing, it just means some kind of system designed to expose people to different types of studies and subject material, hopefully broadly enough so that people can get into somethng that really suits them (to be honest, the fact that our current system can do this to any degree at all baffles me). Anyway though yeah I'm totally up for having a bunch of different stuff available for them to try out, but I think rigorously enforcing a few arbitrary forms of specific subject material is kind of weak. That's why I hate mandatory gen eds. Yeah that's what this whole shpeal is about. Me raging at everything that has ever made me take a chemistry class ever. HYARGGHHH.

Well then it should probably be a system that takes into account both the needs and the wants of many different rationalities, something that should be flexible enough to account for all of them and not just be based on a dominant rationality and has the capacity to guide people depending on how sure they are in their wants and needs.

[P_equals_NP]

Yes. What the system should be is certainly the question isn't it. I'd like to say I know what it should be, but education is a tricky thing requiring delicate knowledge of what generalities you can make about large populations of people and what you can't. Maybe if it was my field I'd like to perform some kind of study as to what kind of a system would be appropriate for this, but as of right now I really can't say for sure what would work without trying it out on something.

[MythicalWashrag]

/DREAMS

DREAMS

You may now continue your serious discussion about thinking and systems.

[Wessolf27]

Yes. What the system should be is certainly the question isn't it. I'd like to say I know what it should be, but education is a tricky thing requiring delicate knowledge of what generalities you can make about large populations of people and what you can't. Maybe if it was my field I'd like to perform some kind of study as to what kind of a system would be appropriate for this, but as of right now I really can't say for sure what would work without trying it out on something.

Well not only the system really. It's kinda the teacher's duty to enable learning, as in to make things interesting for the students to study first before letting them decide whether or not they want to continue or pursue the subjects that they take. This is probably the hardest thing to achieve since people find different things interesting and to make them continue to be interesting. But I guess that's a whole different matter that somewhere along the line requires the knowledge of how to teach a teacher on education as well as giving a lowdown on their rights and needs in order to facilitate their ability to make education as interesting as they can be.

[recalcitrantIre]

DREAMS
You may now continue your serious discussion about thinking and systems.

I'm pretty sure my dreams aren't that insane

or maybe they're more insane, and I'm just used to them and/or not remembering them

on a scale of 1 to Busey, how crazy is being a cyborg, being hunted and then ending up at a camp you used to go to every year with your family



e. or was it an android.. yeah it might have been that one
ridiculously human robots and stuff

[P_equals_NP]

No I'm kind of bored now.

Let's talk about something HOMESTUCK.

What kind of foreshadowing do you think the fact that Andrew decided to leave the comic while Jack is getting beaten up?

MAYBE HE GETS BEATEN SENSELESS OVER THE PERIOD OF FOUR DAYS. BECAUSE IT TAKES THAT LONG.

Edit:

Well not only the system really. It's kinda the teacher's duty to enable learning, as in to make things interesting for the students to study first before letting them decide whether or not they want to continue or pursue the subjects that they take. This is probably the hardest thing to achieve since people find different things interesting and to make them continue to be interesting. But I guess that's a whole different matter that somewhere along the line requires the knowledge of how to teach a teacher on education as well as giving a lowdown on their rights and needs in order to facilitate their ability to make education as interesting as they can be.

Yeah I feel that's a quality of a good teacher certainly, but they are additionally stymied by the fact that our system really doesn't facilitate an interest in learning very well. Instead it teaches kids that learning is about rote memorization, which is really just awful. Even the best teacher can't do much for a student that really doesn't want to learn.

[PumpkinMan]

No I'm kind of bored now.

Let's talk about something HOMESTUCK.

What kind of foreshadowing do you think the fact that Andrew decided to leave the comic while Jack is getting beaten up?

MAYBE HE GETS BEATEN SENSELESS OVER THE PERIOD OF FOUR DAYS. BECAUSE IT TAKES THAT LONG.

It'll take a while for Jack to get beaten unconscious. He's ridiculously durable. We'll probably switch back to him only to find they're still beating up on him, then switch to something else while we wait for them to finish.

[aPawnAscending]

Speaking of claims and the verification of facts and the perception of reality and how most people are too dumb to do it right so fuckasses are what we get or something.
Random fact for the night: The average man spends 5 months shaving during his life. True fact, snapple said so, so it must be true, which makes me one of those fuckasses that didn't get that she saw the skeleton.
That's an absolute fuckton of shaving. Which would require an absolute ton of shaving cream.
John's dad probably spends 5 months shaving per week. Makes complete sense. I mean, I know the man shaves a lot and is totally into the fatherly stuff, but that's alot of shaving.

On second thought this could have gone into coincidences. I suck at this game.

[Triangle Man]

No, I got that on the first readthrough. But I thought it might have been part of the whole metaphor about blindness.

The class as a whole did not figure it out until the teacher gave up and just told us that it was a skeleton, which was the supposed 'hidden depth'.

I'll need to read this myself at some point, but...yeah.

At what point did you figure it out for yourself? I need to figure out how subjectively obvious that might be so that I can figure out how oblivious the rest of your class was compared to you.

Sort of reminds me of the time one of my friends and another classmate got into a contest to see who could come up with the most esoteric/bizarre/'WTF' interpretation of a very dark poem. That was a fun class...

[bloodyEmissary]

I'll need to read this myself at some point, but...yeah.

At what point did you figure it out for yourself? I need to figure out how subjectively obvious that might be so that I can figure out how oblivious the rest of your class was compared to you.

I'd say somewhere between "her heel became lodged in the broken ridge between brow and nose" and "she saw his naked grin".