Jake Be Quick

[.Chika]

Maybe, they weren't exactly forced ...
I see it like ... Uh. A sort of socialism. You know, like public welfare system and stuff. Those who have more have to help those who have less.

... But then, does that mean that the highest castes were enslaved and overtaxed ? Wait, that's weird.
The A2 system looks more logical, even if more cruel.

[The_Codfish]

Ah, I get what you're saying now, but my point still remains. I don't see any indication of highbloods being forced into being what are technically social workers. If they give as much freedom to the lowbloods as I think they have, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't do the same for their own castes.

[genteelGunslinger]

For a world in peace, the very idea of Highbloods being forced into work they were not happy with, as well as lowbloods being forced into manual work is absurd. WHOOPS

The highbloods, in their years of experiences, probably at as a advisory counsel. If they choose to. It wouldn't surprise me that the highbloods, such as the purple bloods, and especially the oldest of the trolls, acted as this advisory group. Otherwise, I think both sides could do whatever the hell they wanted, so long as it kept the peace. And even then, apparently criminal behaviour still happened, the world in a sense wasn't perfect, but it was pretty balanced and stable.

[Treehugger]

I think the idea is that the hemospectrum is a very real thing in troll biology - i.e. trolls with different hues of blood have actually different mental/psychic/physical properties and capacities, they're not just skin deep like skin colours in humans. In this case, taking up specific roles according to blood would be appropriate. Doesn't mean it actually was as harmonious as Aranea described it, but being a responsible caretaker was a self-image familiar to the higher castes.

To me the whole thing has a strong taste of 'White Man's Burden', but that can just be a human reflex.

As far as achievements of the pre-scratch trolls go, Aranea reached God Tier and died a just or heroic death. And they were powerful enough to get the Scratch going, and Meenah tried to save them from getting wiped out - by murdering them and sending them to the afterlife. It's clear that they were pretty powerful.

[Omoly]

I’m going to side with the people who think the A1 universe hemospectrum was bad, if only because I’m automatically suspicious of anything described as a utopia.

The A1 universe was called Peaceful by Doc Scratch.

Peaceful doesn’t necessarily mean happy.

Or maybe I’m just cynical.

[Morhek]

I think the idea is that the hemospectrum is a very real thing in troll biology - i.e. trolls with different hues of blood have actually different mental/psychic/physical properties and capacities, they're not just skin deep like skin colours in humans. In this case, taking up specific roles according to blood would be appropriate. Doesn't mean it actually was as harmonious as Aranea described it, but being a responsible caretaker was a self-image familiar to the higher castes.

To me the whole thing has a strong taste of 'White Man's Burden', but that can just be a human reflex.

As far as achievements of the pre-scratch trolls go, Aranea reached God Tier and died a just or heroic death. And they were powerful enough to get the Scratch going, and Meenah tried to save them from getting wiped out - by murdering them and sending them to the afterlife. It's clear that they were pretty powerful.

White Man's Burden involves imposing one set of cultural norms onto another. These were one culture, or civilisation at least, with different interconnected components. I really think we're overthinking things given the fundamental differences between trolls and humans. Troll biology sure is weird!

And I got the impression that Meenah and Aradia being in the bubbles was a result of the Scratch wiping out their original session. They didn't manage to escape like the B1 kids did, so they were "erased", and ended up in the dreambubbles. If your idea's right, then I guess we have no reason to expect the other A1 trolls to be in the bubbles - perhaps Aranea was the only one in 2x3dent reach? Now they're the only two, left to wander the bubbles?

[Omoly]

To me the whole thing has a strong taste of 'White Man's Burden', but that can just be a human reflex.

I got the exact same vibe! Probably because I’m also human.

It’s possible that instead of being oppressed the lower bloods were treated like children well into adulthood. Well cared for, pampered even, but never really given any freedom or allowed real responsibility. Kind of a gilded cage situation.

[mysteriousOutsider]

Ah, I get what you're saying now, but my point still remains. I don't see any indication of highbloods being forced into being what are technically social workers. If they give as much freedom to the lowbloods as I think they have, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't do the same for their own castes.

Maybe not. I think observing human society would suggest otherwise, but that doesn't necessarily apply.

I just think it's interesting to consider how this system, essentially an inversion of the A2 system, is not quite as perfect as it seems at first glance.

The existence of a caste system of any kind doesn't seem ideal. Any society where the norm / default expectation is "this type of person has this type of role, and this other type of person has another type of role" just seems like it has injustice built in. If the idea is pervasive in the culture that "highbloods should be like this", then a highblood who is not like that will be seen as abnormal, even if there is no official requirement that they conform or repercussions if they don't.

Of course, there are more than cosmetic differences between the castes. They have differing innate abilities. A pretty persuasive argument can be made that they have an obligation to fulfil the potential granted to them by their talents. And it isn't at all specified how strictly prescribed the roles of the highbloods are. Perhaps they're supposed to be free to use their talents productively however they see fit (but then who defines "productive"?). And the lowbloods have their own innate talents, which should imply they have their own obligations to use their talents productively. Is there fundamentally a difference in the level of obligation between higher and lower blood colours? And if not, is there really a need for a hierarchy at all? Why not just a completely flat social structure?

[Morhek]

Again, I think we're overthinking things, and making assumptions based on the scratched version of things. We know that trolls weren't meant to be so brutal - the Sufferer's visions were of a world in peace, and Aranea says her own world was "boring" (from memory). Yes, that doesn't mean things were perfect, and very few systems are. But that also doesn't mean there was anything sinister going on. If there was, Aranea wouldn't be as surprised at the differences as she was.

Edit: is 314 a "significant" number? Should I be offering up examples of my brilliance to wow everybody? Because I kinda thing that disn't gonna happen.

[mysteriousOutsider]

Again, I think we're overthinking things, and making assumptions based on the scratched version of things. We know that trolls weren't meant to be so brutal - the Sufferer's visions were of a world in peace, and Aranea says her own world was "boring" (from memory). Yes, that doesn't mean things were perfect, and very few systems are. But that also doesn't mean there was anything sinister going on. If there was, Aranea wouldn't be as surprised at the differences as she was.

I'm not trying to suggest that it's terrible. It's clearly superior to A2 society, and perhaps even to our own. We would need a lot more information to judge that, of course.

I just don't think it's utopia.

[ashdenej]

Man guys I was so eerily prescient back then

Nobody knows.

She just has so many deals in the fire.
So many

E: Do you think that we'll get to see the Guardians as kids if John "scratches" the game? It'd make some kind of weird sense. What would be even more amusing would be if we got to see the trolls' ancestors as well! Haha, I can't begin to imagine what Karkat's would be like. Just... so hilarious.

How did I do it

Nobody knows

[Morhek]

I'm not trying to suggest that it's terrible. It's clearly superior to A2 society, and perhaps even to our own. We would need a lot more information to judge that, of course.

I just don't think it's utopia.

I don't think Aranea's saying it was a utopia. I think that's just what readers have been inferring, because by contrast it sounds perfect compared to A2 society.

I've got to wonder, Meenah really doesn't sound like a person who would be comfortable using sleight of hand and subtlety. I wounder how she'd react to her scratched counterpart becoming the harbinger of Lord English?

[Hytheter]

And I got the impression that Meenah and Aradia being in the bubbles was a result of the Scratch wiping out their original session. They didn't manage to escape like the B1 kids did, so they were "erased", and ended up in the dreambubbles. If your idea's right, then I guess we have no reason to expect the other A1 trolls to be in the bubbles - perhaps Aranea was the only one in 2x3dent reach? Now they're the only two, left to wander the bubbles?

Aranea has already stated outright that
a) They would not have been in the bubbles if they were still alive during the scratch
b) That all the A1 players are in the bubbles, as she has met them (except Meenah)

GC: WH4T 4BOUT YOUR FR13NDS? 1 GU3SS YOU ST1LL G3T TO H4NG OUT W1TH TH3M 4LL?
AG: Yes. I see them often enough.
AG: Except for one, whom I haven't seen at all since 8efore we all died.
AG: In fact, she's the only reason we are here in the first place, as opposed to merely ceasing to exist upon the scratch.

[ThereWillBePayne]

Wasn't Jake the one that refered to it as a "neat sounding science fiction utopia."? Perhaps Aranea acknowledges these problems as well, and maybe they've found a way to work around it.

[mysteriousOutsider]

Man guys I was so eerily prescient back then

How did I do it

Nobody knows

This is incredibly mysterious

I can only conclude that you are a wizard.

I don't think Aranea's saying it was a utopia. I think that's just what readers have been inferring, because by contrast it sounds perfect compared to A2 society.

No, but Jake did. And she didn't argue.
I don't think that's a big deal though.

[genteelGunslinger]

I've got to wonder, Meenah really doesn't sound like a person who would be comfortable using sleight of hand and subtlety. I wounder how she'd react to her scratched counterpart becoming the harbinger of Lord English?

This is a very good question. Maybe it would have something close to a perspective changing experience for her. Whatever that change might be. Because she seems to act like a bitch with no consideration for the people she is hurting. Completely disconnected with the emotions of others.

So maybe this would teach her empathy.

That, or it'll make her realise just what she is capable of, and attempt to achieve the same level of power

[ThereWillBePayne]

Wait, I'm confused, is Feferi the harbinger, or is the Condense the harbinger? because I thought the Condense was Meenah.

[Rhapsody]

I’m going to side with the people who think the A1 universe hemospectrum was bad, if only because I’m automatically suspicious of anything described as a utopia.

The A1 universe was called Peaceful by Doc Scratch.

Peaceful doesn’t necessarily mean happy.

Or maybe I’m just cynical.

Maybe you are. But I guess that means *I'm* cynical too.
Maybe it's "peaceful" because they get rid of anyone who dares disrupt the 'balance'. >:?

No, but Jake did. And she didn't argue.

She didn't argue but she didn't confirm it either.

Wait, I'm confused, is Feferi the harbinger, or is the Condense the harbinger? because I thought the Condense was Meenah.

The Condesce. She was the Handmaid's replacement, yes? So she served under LE, meaning she also helped to ensure he would be created in the first place.

[Morhek]

Wait, I'm confused, is Feferi the harbinger, or is the Condense the harbinger? because I thought the Condense was Meenah.

Condesce. It's a common mistake.

She is scratched Meenah. Who is the Demon's Witch. Whose appearance is thus the prelude to the arrival of the universe-eating Demon. Who is already here.

Feferi really has nothing to do with it, unless you count setting up the dream bubbles. I'm...not entirely sure how an A2 player setting up something the A1 players relied on works, but I guess you can put it down the Weird Time Shit, or the Horrorterrors not caring about time at all.

[ThereWillBePayne]

Speaking of horrorterrors... was it revealed what was killing them? Is it just LE? I wish there was something more sinister behind their attacks, but I can't think of anything more sinister and evil than eldritch abominations and a universe destroying demon. What could top LE to fight them? It's probably LE, but... still.

[Morhek]

Speaking of horrorterrors... was it revealed what was killing them? Is it just LE? I wish there was something more sinister behind their attacks, but I can't think of anything more sinister and evil than eldritch abominations and a universe destroying demon. What could top LE to fight them? It's probably LE, but... still.

Lord English eats realities. Does the Furthest Ring count as reality? Is that something he would be interested in? I guess if the Skipper Plumbthroat analogy is right, then it can only be him killing the horrorterrors.

I still like to think it's Vriska on a flying pir8 ship, with Tavros strapped to the figurehead and terrified. Lets Fuck Shit Up!!!!!!!!

[Rhapsody]

Condesce. It's a common mistake.

She is scratched Meenah. Who is the Demon's Witch. Whose appearance is thus the prelude to the arrival of the universe-eating Demon. Who is already here.

Feferi really has nothing to do with it, unless you count setting up the dream bubbles. I'm...not entirely sure how an A2 player setting up something the A1 players relied on works, but I guess you can put it down the Weird Time Shit, or the Horrorterrors not caring about time at all.

The Horrorterrors are so deep within the Furthest Ring that time can't be trusted to work 'properly', I guess. /shrug
I guess it wasn't exactly set up by an A2 player in the A1 universe, because the A2 players only exist there due to Meenah's influence? So Feferi only set it up for the A1 players who had dead dreamselves. I guess there's a connection there--Feferi and Meenah are both the reasons as to why their respective universes have access to dreambubbles, in one way or another. They talked to the Horrorterrors, then.

[mysteriousOutsider]

Speaking of horrorterrors... was it revealed what was killing them? Is it just LE? I wish there was something more sinister behind their attacks, but I can't think of anything more sinister and evil than eldritch abominations and a universe destroying demon. What could top LE to fight them? It's probably LE, but... still.

What could top LE?

TEAM FUCK SHIT UP

... well, it's not impossible

edit: and when I sat TFSU I really just mean Vriska
actually there are potentially multiple instances of Vriska that could be responsible. Maybe it's both of them.

[GideonWells]

I was getting more of an economic vibe than a racial one here with Feferi/Meenie/Condescence being the "1%" with as you go down the line you become increasingly more "blue collar". This makes Karkat/Sufferer more interesting. He is off the color scale/economic scale and happens to be the Troll Jegus. In other words he's faith, not economics. This is assuming the subjuggulators didn't have a faith in A1 and the Mirthful Messiahs were artificially imposed.

Aranea is describing a system where the managers and bosses and CEOs see a need to make sure their workers and the non-financially gifted are still taken care of in needs that they are capable of providing, but the low bloods aren't able to secure themselves.

The twelve trolls castes seen can even be linked to "professions" if you accept this hypothesis. Tavros/Nepeta blood castes may have been the agricultural castes. Sollux's whatever roll would become more techy. You could make arguments that Equuis and Gamzee's castes have law enforcement aspects. Maybe Gamzee's caste was more military or high command. Aranea/Vriska could have been the management/supervisors. I keep thinking Eridan's caste was responsible for "Troll Resources" now, but I am having trouble thinking on how to justify it satisfactorily.

[ThereWillBePayne]

I still like to think it's Vriska on a flying pir8 ship, with Tavros strapped to the figurehead and terrified. Lets Fuck Shit Up!!!!!!!!

Except it's a corpse, and Gamzee is in the crows nest whispering to Vriska's head as the ship shatters against the beak of a tentacled cthulhu impostor. :P