IDE/Theory Thread 25: The Red Supergiant is the Forge

[cyberHeroine]

For reference IDE is just a misspelling of idea that stuck.

Here are some things everyone should know, and some refutations:
Lord English/Skipper Plumbthroat comparisons have been pointed out a million times before.
The Hemospectrum is an arbitrary caste system, and the alien equivalent of racism. It is recognized only by Alternian culture, and only three of the twelve trolls. Sburb does not acknowledge its existence, that would be the same thing as separating human players based on their skin color. This is also why gray, not red, is Karkat's associated color.
Also, he's technically below the bottom of their caste system. His blood color does not "wrap around" to become the highest.
Terezi's dream self is blind because she wants to be blind, as she prefers her smellovision to normal sight. If staring into Skaia could blind you then half the characters would be blind.
Humans do not have Troll Relationships! Any sane person would see a relationship based on hatred as pretty bad (if you did not realize this, you are a shipper and should seek help immediately).
It is never said that First Guardians serve Lord English. More likely Doc Scratch is a special case.
Bro =/= Any anime characters
Jade's land doesn't reference anime either.
GCat's existence was not hinted at during the Jack: Ascend flash. GCat is named for the initials of the four nucleotides of DNA, and thus is just continuing the theme.
There are probably no special methods to reach God Tier besides the two we've seen so far. Also, the Quest Crypt works for either remaining life and thus Jake can still God Tier at this time.
Most importantly, the best advice we can give you is do not attempt to look for patterns where there are none.

Now, add your own theories.

[Freack]

Ah, just fine.

Anyways. My theory is that Condy will be defeated by the power of Morialship! Because Droog seems to thing he has her figured out, and he is personified.

[Morhek]

I just got up to [S] Past Karkat: Wake up. In it, Terezi recovers Aradia's Music Box Time Machines. The same or similar ones that Gamzee uses when he appears to Jane. I think I remember that the Trolls made a bunch of copies of their weapons just for the hell of it, but it still feels like Terezi is going to have to face Gamzee at some point - either as part of a crazy Gamzee quest to fuck with people, or part of a larger plan.

I've said it a few times on the Comic Discussion thread, so sorry for repeating myself, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that Gamzee is part of a larger plan to send other people back in time to affect things so that they can all enter the B2 session.

[Skarvo]

Wait...wait wait wait...
How does Karkat have a lusus?
I never caught that...The Signless didn't have a lusus, he got Ancestor-Kanaya.
Lusus' need to have the same blood, and Karkat is all t4sty c4ndy bl00d.
?

[Kaleb702]

Wait...wait wait wait...
How does Karkat have a lusus?
I never caught that...The Signless didn't have a lusus, he got Ancestor-Kanaya.
Lusus' need to have the same blood, and Karkat is all t4sty c4ndy bl00d.
?

This belongs in simple questions thread, but:
The Signless, with his buddies, bred candy blood lusii for his descendant.

[Ebon_Heart]

I have a theory about paradox space. First off, it seems as though the Alpha timeline exists as a chain, rather than a line. With each link in the chain being a stable time loop. I'd also like to bring to mind the idea of the possiblity of a "beta timeline" Which would be a predestined timeline which runs alongside the alpha timeline (or chain, I suppose) and sets up all the stable time loops that make up the existence of the alpha timeline. This seems to be a pretty logical explanation for why so many things cause their own existance in the alpha timeline. What do you guys think? Am I completely off my rocker here?

[fractalVacancy]

Wait...wait wait wait...
How does Karkat have a lusus?
I never caught that...The Signless didn't have a lusus, he got Ancestor-Kanaya.
Lusus' need to have the same blood, and Karkat is all t4sty c4ndy bl00d.
?

I think Doc Scratch's story indicates that a lusus "was found" for him, implicitly by the Sufferer's surviving cult. Personally, I suspect it involves either species that don't normally act as lusii because they have blood that isn't normally part of the hemospectrum, or genetic engineering.

[Skarvo]

Thanks about the lusus.
Also, as for Ebon_Heart's timeline/chain stuff, the time in Homestuck isn't really that confusing. Basically, the path which skaia (which is to say, all the skaias, or paradox space) has determined as the "alpha" path should not be confused with the A1/B1/A2/B2 meaning of "alpha".
The separate timelines/universes (whatever debate that is) are WITHIN the main timeline/chain as you call it. A timeline becomes doomed when it veers off the alpha path in some way. While paradox space doesn't plan all the details, if you disobey any of the major events, you're screwed. On occasion the existence of doomed timelines is PART of the plan, but they are no less doomed (see dead Daves so that he could learn the dangers and play safe, and Aradia robot army).
Scratching though is a built in function of skaia/paradox space, and so can and sometimes must be part of the alpha plan. Scratching is like a special kind of timeline adjustment, and transcends the paradox-space-physics of a doomed timeline. While a doomed timeline will quickly peter out as everyone dies, a scratched timeline immediately ceases to exist entirely, and becomes the new timeline/universe (again, w/e debate that is). In this way, the new universe/timeline is a continuation of the old one, rather than the entirely new "proper" timeline, as though the scratched timeline was a doomed timeline that finally stopped.

That is to say, in a very long-winded way, that the universes could work yes, as links in a chain, all with their own doomed timelines, and all of which must end at some point (due to a scratch or making a new universe(s) (plurality of universes made...w/e debate that is man)), all of which are/were valid in their time, as "alpha"'s, and ended not due to being doomed, but because that was part of the plan.

Hussie and his liberal use of Alpha confusing all them peoples up.

To add to the theory pool, I've been thinking about the dreambubbles and how many dead people there are in there, and I think it may be that it's only possible for other links, or universes (I like the link idea) to share dream bubbles with universes that are part of their chain. Like, normally each link would be on its own, along with its scratches, but the trolls did some funky stuff in connecting to the humans and intertwined their links, which is why the dream bubbles are all shared up.
This could explain why only humies and trolls show up in the bubbles (so far at least). I realize it could also be the HorrorTerrors and nonsense deciding to not let the universes hang together in death, but I think there is at least an association like that.

[Skarvo]

Final note: Obviously Echidna, Jade's denizen (also Kanaya's, but I'm talking about Jade's instance of Ech) made a deal with Jade to help all the lo_a_'s survive and denizens and all that, and so knew that it was both possible to move from pre- to post-scratch, and being a being of skaia/paradox space at least on some level, knew that it would not be a doomed timeline to do so.
Echidna confirms those silly people who think scratched sessions are doomed are silly. John/Jade/Dave/Rose aren't doomed! Yaaaaay! Well...until Hussie gets a hold of them with his character killing pen..

[aPawnAscending]

Wait...wait wait wait...
How does Karkat have a lusus?
I never caught that...The Signless didn't have a lusus, he got Ancestor-Kanaya.
Lusus' need to have the same blood, and Karkat is all t4sty c4ndy bl00d.
?

The Singles's followers waited for a lusus to be born that shared his blood color and they ensured that the two would find eachother or something. It was all pretty much talked about when Doc Scratch was the narrator.

[sxizzor]

i think there was a line somewhere about an alpha timeline simply being the timeline of a universe that ensures its own existence. doomed timelines are doomed because they cause paradoxes and cease to exist. in davesprite's timeline, for example, john was killed before he could do the ectobiology thing, which caused a bunch of paradoxes obviously. scratches are successful because they still let the universe/timeline exist, just with different parameters. that's also why the scratch kids (usually) cease to exist: we fucked with the past and now things are different in the future.

[Ebon_Heart]

Thanks about the lusus.
Also, as for Ebon_Heart's timeline/chain stuff, the time in Homestuck isn't really that confusing. Basically, the path which skaia (which is to say, all the skaias, or paradox space) has determined as the "alpha" path should not be confused with the A1/B1/A2/B2 meaning of "alpha".
The separate timelines/universes (whatever debate that is) are WITHIN the main timeline/chain as you call it. A timeline becomes doomed when it veers off the alpha path in some way. While paradox space doesn't plan all the details, if you disobey any of the major events, you're screwed. On occasion the existence of doomed timelines is PART of the plan, but they are no less doomed (see dead Daves so that he could learn the dangers and play safe, and Aradia robot army).
Scratching though is a built in function of skaia/paradox space, and so can and sometimes must be part of the alpha plan. Scratching is like a special kind of timeline adjustment, and transcends the paradox-space-physics of a doomed timeline. While a doomed timeline will quickly peter out as everyone dies, a scratched timeline immediately ceases to exist entirely, and becomes the new timeline/universe (again, w/e debate that is). In this way, the new universe/timeline is a continuation of the old one, rather than the entirely new "proper" timeline, as though the scratched timeline was a doomed timeline that finally stopped.

That is to say, in a very long-winded way, that the universes could work yes, as links in a chain, all with their own doomed timelines, and all of which must end at some point (due to a scratch or making a new universe(s) (plurality of universes made...w/e debate that is man)), all of which are/were valid in their time, as "alpha"'s, and ended not due to being doomed, but because that was part of the plan.

Hussie and his liberal use of Alpha confusing all them peoples up.

To add to the theory pool, I've been thinking about the dreambubbles and how many dead people there are in there, and I think it may be that it's only possible for other links, or universes (I like the link idea) to share dream bubbles with universes that are part of their chain. Like, normally each link would be on its own, along with its scratches, but the trolls did some funky stuff in connecting to the humans and intertwined their links, which is why the dream bubbles are all shared up.
This could explain why only humies and trolls show up in the bubbles (so far at least). I realize it could also be the HorrorTerrors and nonsense deciding to not let the universes hang together in death, but I think there is at least an association like that.

My theory about the beta timeline (this is also a loose definition of beta, for lack of a better name for a new timeline within an existing universe) stems from the fact that many events in the alpha timeline cause themselves. The alpha timeline exists in stable timeloops. So the beta timeline would simply set those loops up so that the alpha timeline could exist. For example... in the beta timeline, John and the kids were born without John making them. And Beq Noire was created without Beq Noire first interfering in the trolls universe. (First used in a cause/effect way rather than a linear way) I would guess if there was a beta timeline, it died off somewhere, but it existed long enough to set up the Alpha timeline which we follow in the story.

[Blaperile]

IDE/Theory: Like how Jack is more important than the rest of the Midnight Crew in A2 and B1, DD will be more important than the rest of the Midnight Crew in B2.

[Karkarta]

My theory about the beta timeline (this is also a loose definition of beta, for lack of a better name for a new timeline within an existing universe) stems from the fact that many events in the alpha timeline cause themselves. The alpha timeline exists in stable timeloops. So the beta timeline would simply set those loops up so that the alpha timeline could exist. For example... in the beta timeline, John and the kids were born without John making them. And Beq Noire was created without Beq Noire first interfering in the trolls universe. (First used in a cause/effect way rather than a linear way) I would guess if there was a beta timeline, it died off somewhere, but it existed long enough to set up the Alpha timeline which we follow in the story.

If you have trouble understanding or accepting how time loops set up themselves, then feel free to imagine a "beta timeline". But even if such a thing existed, it wouldn't influence the alpha timeline in any way.

Does a universe make a sound if no one hears it exist?

[Kaleb702]

If you have trouble understanding or accepting how time loops set up themselves, then feel free to imagine a "beta timeline". But even if such a thing existed, it wouldn't influence the alpha timeline in any way.

Does a universe make a sound if no one hears it exist?

Who says existing makes a sound? What if the universe is mute?

dohoho

[Antagonist]

As to the beta timelines set up alpha timeline theory... It is possible, tho if so would never appear in story. However, I feel it is unlikely.

The prime example of event that causes itself is the frog temples and getting sent back to the reckoning. There is no beta timeline that can exist to set this up, since if there was no reckoning (or at least implied temples sent back some other way) then there is no Sburb. Unless the beta timeline has a way to propel the temples through the portals without involvement of the players then no setup beta timeline is possible.

I think it is one of those things like Quantum mechanics. It just works this way. It doesn't quite make sense, and attempts to make sense of it is unlikely to be correct.


One related theory I feel I should advance though is iterative time loops theory. Basically when a time loop occurs the first time, it happens differently the second time, due to free will and all, then repeats until a point of stability occurs.

Like I go back in time, sleep with my grandmother. As time continues I am never born but a slightly different genetically grandson is. This grandson also chooses to go back in time and sleep with grandmother. A few more iterations until stability and you end up with someone who is their own grandfather, a causation loop without a clear start.

The key difference between this and the beta setup theory is that there is a place it can start. It does not allow eternal pocketwatch paradoxes unless that pocketwatch exists at some time to be passed back, but it cannot create from scratch.

[analogConspiracy]

Every universe's version of DD smiles once per session.

show spoiler

hide spoiler

Edit: Posting an image for the first time would fuck up, huh.

[gentlemenshadow]

Jane, after getting tiger, cause that is going to happen, will resurrect all dead bodies of characters she can exert her powers on.

This will prove problematic due to the fact that Gamzee was being Gamzee and ran off with them.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Going to just post this here so I can do the HAA HAA I WAS TOTALLY RIGHT dance if I'm right later:

Vriska will fuck shit up by stealing the light from the Green Sun. In addition to the Killed By Break Spider art from forever ago, precedent has been set for God Tiers being able to manipulate their element in the literal sense by Aranea being able to heal Terezi's vision.

[Legendary]

I like that theory because it continues the elevation of protagonists and antagonists by adding Green Sun shit to it, but I'd like to note that it might just be that some classes manipulate things literally, and some manipulate things figuratively. John actually has gusts of wind to throw around. A Seer of Breath probably doesn't just literally see the wind.

[Blaperile]

A Seer of Breath probably doesn't just literally see the wind.

Yeah, I think the Seers are meant to be more figural instead of literal. Rose doesn't literally see some kind of light that other don't, nor does Terezi literally see into others' minds. I'd say a Seer of Breath would see where the "wind" would take him (AKA, he'd have a good intuition).

[FowlJ]

Yeah, I think the Seers are meant to be more figural instead of literal. Rose doesn't literally see some kind of light that other don't, nor does Terezi literally see into others' minds. I'd say a Seer of Breath would see where the "wind" would take him (AKA, he'd have a good intuition).

Well, Terezi's is a lot closer to being literal, and I'm assuming at least the sylph uses two definitions of light, as Aranea's only power being to cure blindness would be a little too specific to actually be useful.

[ArmsAreLoud]

I like that theory because it continues the elevation of protagonists and antagonists by adding Green Sun shit to it, but I'd like to note that it might just be that some classes manipulate things literally, and some manipulate things figuratively. John actually has gusts of wind to throw around. A Seer of Breath probably doesn't just literally see the wind.

AG: This is what I did as a Sylph of Light. Helped people see things.
AG: I could even perform the feat literally, if you wanted.

There ya go, Aranea explicitly saying that her class allows her to do both. I don't see any reason why we should consider Sylphs an exception to a rule that was never canonically established.

[The_Codfish]

Rose actually used her Seer of Light powers literally when she saw through the surface of the cueball. So yeah, Seers can use their aspects both figuratively and literally.

Going to just post this here so I can do the HAA HAA I WAS TOTALLY RIGHT dance if I'm right later:

Vriska will fuck shit up by stealing the light from the Green Sun. In addition to the Killed By Break Spider art from forever ago, precedent has been set for God Tiers being able to manipulate their element in the literal sense by Aranea being able to heal Terezi's vision.

I cling on to this theory immediately in case it is right. CLING TO IT.

[Legendary]

That doesn't entirely disprove it, however, since John still only uses Breath literally, Gamzee has only been seen using metaphorical Rage, Eridan's powers were aimed at destroying conceptual Hope, Jade's suspected Witch powers only relate to dimensional Space, Dave only has manipulated his position in time, etc, etc, etc. We've only seen Vriska steal fortune. She may not be able to steal actual light.