Vriska Quarantine Thread #(1.875x8): So I d8ed your alt self...

[VexTheWarlord]

androids is right, Re: The creation of Jack Noir.

There are a lot of interesting things going on there, mostly showing how Vriska actually feels towards her friends. Right from the start, with 'lousy goddamn stupid supportive friend', all the way up to her feeling remorse for killing Tavros, it's pretty obvious she does actually like them all (or most of them.... Eridan!), but hates the way they view her because of the things she had to do out of necessity. It's for this reason that I don't fully buy her "I wanted to create the strongest boss to challenge my abilities" load of crap. There's more here than she's letting on.

From her critique of Tavros's plan, and "AG: Nice deduction! Wrong, excruci8tingly linear, and laced with the sort of a8solutes morons like to throw around........" it's plain that she broadly understands the rules of Paradox Space with regards to alpha timelines and the punishments for deviating from them. The real reason she's creating Jack Noir is to save everyone on that damn rock because she knows nobody else can do it (sending people to sleep at critical moments) or will do it (general disinterest from more than half the trolls). But again, its not enough to prove her a hero, because people will think like Tavros, just see the spiderbitch being a spiderbitch, having to have all of the irons in all of the fires, as usual. And she'd never mention it anyway, because she doesn't show concern for other trolls, it's just how she's been raised.

But she can talk to John, because he doesn't have Alternian standards of behaviour: "AG: To 8e honest, I am nervous a8out this fight. 8ut I'm still going through with it, for a lot of reasons. To save my friends, or at least the ones who are still alive. Oh, and I guess to save reality itself from 8eing totally fucked up. There's that too." The whole universe is just an afterthought to saving her friends and finally getting them to see her as a good guy (which is, granted, an afterthought at that point to seeing John). But while she's being honest, notice she doesn't say anything about challenging her abilities for the sake of it? That's just a clever excuse to tell Tavros, that fits in with her established character traits. There's also her tendency to refer to herself and John as "heroes" where all the others mostly refer to themselves as "players".

I honestly think thats part of why Vriska was so sad in the afterlife, too. She knew that for her death to stick, she must've been judged a villain by the clock, and she'd been fighting to try and change that perception, and failed. It must've felt like the "villain" brand was inescapable at that point. It took her two sub-acts of Act 6 and a body horror incident to snap her out of that depression, and I hope she's now coming back to set the record straight once and for all.

I love pretty much all of this post.

[Sparrowsmith]

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Vriska had killed Jack.
In a situation where she could kill Jack without Jack killing everyone.

Would she return triumphant, heralded as a hero, as intended, or would she still be the spiderbitch?
It's not like it would change their situation at all, they just wouldn't be afraid of dying anymore. It would basically become A1. Hell, either they'd see it as some self-righteous act and still hate her...orrrr...
or they'd fear her even more than Jack. They'd be all smiles to her face, but they'd fear the ever loving shit out of her.

[ArmsAreLoud]

They'd treat her the same way they treated her after she killed the Black King.

[Conspicuous]

No, I'm pretty sure she would've returned to a situation were everyone was dead.
Except for Gamzee, who would be busy macking on everyone's decapitated heads.

[kaoticAntagonist]

No, I'm pretty sure she would've returned to a situation were everyone was dead.
Except for Gamzee, who would be busy macking on everyone's decapitated heads.

their situation would change...

basically not a bit, cause even after Noir was killed they would still have nowhere to go.

The Green Sun plan, otherwise, if she could make it back to the meteor in time, would have been basically the same?

Except for the whole frog killing thing i guess, so there would be no GS.

I miss the Green Sun autoreplace we used to have.

But, yeah, they would probably be thankful. Sort of. Even if she went about it in the worst way possible and a shitload of their friends are dead...

They'd treat her the same way they treated her after she killed the Black King.

you have a point, but that wasn't Vriska soloing it. They were all in it together, and their victory got overshadowed by everything fucking up.

I mean, who the hell would start handing out congratulations at that point?

[Aloice]

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Vriska had killed Jack.
In a situation where she could kill Jack without Jack killing everyone.

Would she return triumphant, heralded as a hero, as intended, or would she still be the spiderbitch?
It's not like it would change their situation at all, they just wouldn't be afraid of dying anymore. It would basically become A1. Hell, either they'd see it as some self-righteous act and still hate her...orrrr...
or they'd fear her even more than Jack. They'd be all smiles to her face, but they'd fear the ever loving shit out of her.

what if
one of Vriska's motivations for creating Jack was because defeating the BK didn't make her friends like her
so she had to create a bigger obstacle and defeat the bigger obstacle
To see if it would work this time

[kaoticAntagonist]

what if
one of Vriska's motivations for creating Jack was because defeating the BK didn't make her friends like her
so she had to create a bigger obstacle and defeat the bigger obstacle
To see if it would work this time

That's just the stupidest plan she could think of.

If something doesn't work just try it bigger?

Rarely does that ever help, especially in social situations.

And I would almost believe it, except I hope she is not so far gone that she wouldn't consider the aftermath.

Then again she almost never does so...

yeah.

[ableAllegorist]

We know why Vriska did it. She saw that it had to happen to keep the Alpha stable, and so she did it. And we know she wasn't exactly totally ambivalent about said decisions (she apologized to John for getting him killed - despite knowing he'd be fine and in fact much, much more powerful). Now, we do know that she wanted to kill Jack as something of an act of redemption in her friends eyes, that is for certain; she wanted to be the hero. A bit of an irony, given what she had been trying to be before, but no one ever said the girl was simple.

Edit: And this post was pointless because Azure already put it much, much better then I did. A thousand times yes to that post.

[Conspicuous]

The only reason that Vriska believed that creating Jack would be important to uphold the timeline is because Doc Scratch duped her into doing it.
By convincing that inevitability is not worth fighting against, she would be capable of doing the worst things while believing that inevitability absolves her of responsibility, even though the only reason such a timeline could exist in the first place is because Vriska would be willing to play her role in the creation of it.
Without Doc Scratch doing so, the timeline would be immensely different. To the point that Jack could never stop the trolls, the kids might not even exist at all, which would also mean the guide Kanaya used wouldn't exist, the wouldn't exist as their universe wouldn't be destroyed, Lrd English might not even exist...
And all because a puppet would trick an impressionable girl into believing that the Alpha Timeline is a big bad entity that controls your entire future, while you don't have any say in the matter.

He's pretty clever.

On an entirely different note, I always find it amusing how similar Vriska's and Tavros' situations were.
Both of them decided to take on someone they had good reason to believe was a "villain" on alone.
Both of them did it because it would: a: protect their friends, and b: make them into a hero.
Both of them refused to communicate their plans to the other trolls, instead of working with them, and allowing them to point out the dangers in their plans.
Both of them grossly underestimated their opponent, which would have great consequences for them.

Of course, there's still a lot of differences, like how Vriska wasn't really evil (but gave Tavros enough reason to believe so, with her whole speech about how she totally brought Jack into being because she wanted to feel important), and how Tavros' fuckup got him killed, while Vriska's got everyone else killed.
At their core, they're still really similar, though. And it's absolutely hilarious.
Vriska taught Tavros a lot more than she realized, unfortunately, he learned all the wrong lessons from her.

[Sollux II Captor]

so wait a sec, if vriska never tampered with john's prototyping, they'd all be doomed? how else would bec noir even exist in the first place if his existence pre-dates her tampering?

i'm so confused. i thought he was going to get created regardless of vriska's actions... she self inserted herself ala tavros did for the jade incident. can you corroborate that doc scratch told her to do it, or this is a very good hunch (because it is)

[kaoticAntagonist]

so wait a sec, if vriska never tampered with john's prototyping, they'd all be doomed? how else would bec noir even exist in the first place if his existence pre-dates her tampering?

i'm so confused. i thought he was going to get created regardless of vriska's actions... she self inserted herself ala tavros did for the jade incident.

okay basically all she stopped was...

well, it depends. It possibly would have made him armless, though he could at least partially control his transformations.

Bec was prototyping himself though. What Vriska had a much bigger hand in was making Bec.

Also timeloops and shit. also they were in different universes, so no one really came before or after each other in that context.

[Conspicuous]

Try thinking less linearly.
Time is a pretty screwy deal, but it cannot force decisions on people they could never make of their own volition.
If Vriska wouldn't be capable of creating Bec, they wouldn't even be stuck on the meteor in the first place.

Cause and effect cease to work in a logical sense once the future starts affecting the past, as your actions in the future will start affecting your own past and lead you to make those decisions in the first place.
If you believe strong enough that such a thing means that you absolutely have to do it no matter what, you become merely a tool of Paradox Space, like Aradia.
It cannot force it's will on others, though. Only decide which of your choices will be canonised.

Edit; Also, remember that Vriska made sure that DD got the MEOW book, as otherwise Dave would've burned it, preventing Earth's first guardian from being created.

[azureArcana]

I think the only distinction you're drawing there is whether Paradox Space is the entity that erases doomed timelines, or whether it's LE. If Doc Scratch is lying and PSpace has no will of its own, SOMETHING still erases doomed timelines -- we know DOOMED status is a thing, because of Doomed Dave(s), of Trollian not viewing alternate timelines, things like that. If it's not PSpace preserving the alpha as the only timeline, then it must be LE ensuring his own existance by erasing all futures that don't contribute to it. Doomed timelines which something to contribute to the alpha, namely Davesprite's timeline, are allowed to exist until their purpose is fulfilled, then erased. Presumably anyone who dies before a doomed timeline completes its purpose and is erased is sent to a Dreambubble (shadow-of-a-John).

So even if it is LE wandering around laser-breathing anything that doesn't contribute to his ascension, or maybe just blowing up things at random in an omnicidal rage, like Jack, and simply avoiding things that would cause a paradox and undo his existance, there are still consequences for not following predestination. Namely getting laser breathed. So no, Vriska still didn't have a choice.

The only thing that would mean Vriska had a choice is if doomed timelines weren't erased, but thats pretty much been shown to be untrue, as far as I can recall. If it was true we'd have 5 dimensions active, infinite multiverses everywhere, where every conceivable combination of events happened, and that would just be a total mess and its not really something my brain can wrap itself around. Time travel with doomed timelines screws with me enough without adding full-out 5-dimensional travel into it.

There is, though, maybe something in the idea that Paradox Space IS sort-of Lord English, that Trollian was created by LE or Doc Scratch to keep the trolls focused on the alpha and the creation of the human session and eventually the Green Sun, Paradox Space's space and time are messed up because space and time are one, much like Caliborn and Calliope are one, being space and time players. Maybe the black hole at the end of Caliborn: Enter IS PSpace, which just keeps growing and encompassing everything. LE is sanctioned by Paradox Space because he's the one that made and enforces the rules, and that was just another verbal trick by Doc Scratch. Although for what reason LE would want Vriska dead and Karkat/Terezi alive, I couldn't say. The Horrorterrors would be inciters of rebellion against LE's regime, in this instance, maybe thats why they create the dreambubbles, to rescue powerful people in order to move against LE, and perhaps they created the Squiddles in order to endear themselves to humans and perhaps enlist them?

Argh, I'm rambling. Anyway the point is Vriska really DIDN'T have a choice at all, for one reason or another.

[Conspicuous]

The only reason Vriska didn't have a choice is because she made her choice long ago, when she was being manipulated by Scratch.
If she was never led to believe that "because Paradox Space says so" is a valid reason to do things, then the ALPHA Timeline wouldn't involve her creating Bec in the first place. It would be different beyond our imagining.
The only reason why Vriska went along with is because she was placed in the position to do so and ironically created the predicament that led to that situation in the first place.

TLDR: Think on a larger scale than just the effects of her choices on that exact moment.

[azureArcana]

I'm sorry, but I still don't get it.

Under your theory, why do people who defy the current/canon alpha die? It's stated outright by Dave that if he steps out of time loops, or makes the wrong decision, he dies. I'm pretty sure Dave has never really heard of or ever really gave a shit about P-Space or any theory involving it. He says he just goes with it and things turn out better than if he tries to overthink. It's pretty much accepted fact that not living up to your time loops, not living up to predestination, causes death, by sources other and independant of than Doc Scratch. Scratch's influence doesn't seem to reach far enough to cause what you're implying.

[kaoticAntagonist]

I'm sorry, but I still don't get it.

Under your theory, why do people who defy the current/canon alpha die? It's stated outright by Dave that if he steps out of time loops, or makes the wrong decision, he dies. I'm pretty sure Dave has never really heard of or ever really gave a shit about P-Space or any theory involving it. He says he just goes with it and things turn out better than if he tries to overthink. It's pretty much accepted fact that not living up to your time loops, not living up to predestination, causes death, by sources other and independant of than Doc Scratch. Scratch's influence doesn't seem to reach far enough to cause what you're implying.

Though I disagree with a few parts this is the basic theory I (and I assume Conspicuous) is working off of.

[Conspicuous]

Though I disagree with a few parts this is the basic theory I (and I assume Conspicuous) is working off of.

Too long, didn't read.
But probably similar to my views, I guess.

Suffice it to say, that Paradox Space is pretty limited in what it can actually do.
Mostly it's in charge of which of the players' choices are to be considered "Alpha", but all those choices are perfectly sensible for the characters to make.
Some of those involve being fed information from the future to make your decision, but the only reason that information could exist in the first place is because you would be willing to make that choice in the future.

So while anything you see of the future is absolutely set in stone, it's only because you made it like that. It's a consequence of your own actions, and that's why Vriska only made Bec because that was a totally sensible decision for her to make, which propagated into the past, and caused that decision in a paradoxical manner.

It's all pretty confusing shit to me too, if I'm perfectly fucking honest.

[Razack105]

EDIT: lol wrong thread. mah bad.

~Razack105 is currently racking up infractions like tomorrow wasn't a thing.~

[azureArcana]

Too long, didn't read.
But probably similar to my views, I guess.

Suffice it to say, that Paradox Space is pretty limited in what it can actually do.
Mostly it's in charge of which of the players' choices are to be considered "Alpha", but all those choices are perfectly sensible for the characters to make.
Some of those involve being fed information from the future to make your decision, but the only reason that information could exist in the first place is because you would be willing to make that choice in the future.

So while anything you see of the future is absolutely set in stone, it's only because you made it like that. It's a consequence of your own actions, and that's why Vriska only made Bec because that was a totally sensible decision for her to make, which propagated into the past, and caused that decision in a paradoxical manner.

It's all pretty confusing shit to me too, if I'm perfectly fucking honest.

Yeah I basically don't disagree with any of this, stable time loops are definitely a thing. I don't see how Vriska's adherence to the idea that there are consequences for defying the alpha changes anything, though. If she believed there weren't any consequences, and didn't create Bec Noir, how is that any different than when Terezi prevented him from existing by killing John, and why wasn't that timeline canonised?

[VexTheWarlord]

No.

Just no.

Just to start with, as much as Vriska may have wanted to be responsible for Jack Noir's ascent to power, she really wasn't.

She punched John in the brain, putting him to sleep at a pivotal moment and allowing Becquerel to be prototyped... But Becquerel prototyped himself of his own free will and would have done it regardless; more importantly it's incredibly likely that if Vriska hadn't interfered with what John was doing, then Becquerel would have done it himself and prevented the Blue Doll prototyping either way.

She influenced DD so as to create Becquerel to begin with... but Earth would have had a First Guardian no matter what; and because the targetting equipment was locked, it would have been Becquerel regardless of Vriska or DD's interference.

In the end, Vriska had absolutely no influence on the ascension of Jack Noir to power. She may have wanted to, likely to feel like she had some degree of control over the situation, or to impress her friends, or even in some attempt to get rid of that prophecy of Doc Scratch's that she may or may not have still felt was hanging over her.

And in the end she was correct. Jack was already there, which meant that he had to get there, and fighting against fate would do nothing because, at least in this respect; it was already set in stone.

It was just that honking maniac that was actually to blame.

Edit: And people, come on. I'm disappointed in you all. The reason that this particular timeline is the Alpha Timeline, is because of The Ultimate Riddle, it's just how everything worked out in the end. You don't get punished for deviating from it, you just don't quite exist to begin with, except in an imaginary sense. Although less imaginary than actual imagination, obviously.

[kaoticAntagonist]

Yeah, you are probably correct in your assessment.

But I tend to think if someone is willing to take responsibility, why not give it to them.

Factually, from what I can remember, the only thing she did that was necessary and would not have happened otherwise was tell DD about Rose's codes and where to get them. As far as I can tell, especially with the Queen dead (I assume she is the one to usually make the FG's, and not Droog) there would have been no one to make Bec, and no codes to make him from because, I believe, Dave was minutes away from destroying them himself when DD came.

From what I can tell that had a similar effect on their session as Gamzee making john obsessed with clowns or whatever the fuck he did. A small thing that spiraled bigger and bigger, having huge effects. Without the clown shit maybe Jack wouldn't have flipped out and killed the Queen or whatever. But since it did happen it was similar in the respect that he was already there, and you couldn't change that.

edit: which leads us down the immutable predestination crap, which makes responsibility like holding water in you hands.

[azureArcana]

But Becquerel DIDN'T prevent it himself. He only rushed to the scene when John dropped the doll. If he was intending to prevent it Vriska wouldn't have had to KO John because the doll would have disappeared with the rest of the junk in a green flash. Something changed when Vriska KO'd John that caused Bec to see Jade as no longer safe, because he sure wasnt interfering before that happened. So he jumped in the sprite himself. Maybe the entry process would've taken too long and she would've died, or something, so he had to destroy the meteor.

If Vriska hadn't nudged DD to get the book, all the paradox machine would've created was a clone of Harley. Her action of prompting him to go get that and shove it in the thing was what made him a First Guardian and not just another dog. If she hadn't, it's fair to speculate that it would've become a Doomed timeline, because every planet MUST have a First Guardian. There was no window for manoevering there; If she'd sent him earlier the book wouldn't be there, if she'd left him alone he either wouldn't have gone to get it, or gone later, and the book would've been burned.

I dunno, I'm really tired and this is making my brain hurt so I'm going to go sleep on it.

[Sollux II Captor]

No.

Just no.

Just to start with, as much as Vriska may have wanted to be responsible for Jack Noir's ascent to power, she really wasn't.

She punched John in the brain, putting him to sleep at a pivotal moment and allowing Becquerel to be prototyped... But Becquerel prototyped himself of his own free will and would have done it regardless; more importantly it's incredibly likely that if Vriska hadn't interfered with what John was doing, then Becquerel would have done it himself and prevented the Blue Doll prototyping either way.

She influenced DD so as to create Becquerel to begin with... but Earth would have had a First Guardian no matter what; and because the targetting equipment was locked, it would have been Becquerel regardless of Vriska or DD's interference.

In the end, Vriska had absolutely no influence on the ascension of Jack Noir to power. She may have wanted to, likely to feel like she had some degree of control over the situation, or to impress her friends, or even in some attempt to get rid of that prophecy of Doc Scratch's that she may or may not have still felt was hanging over her.

And in the end she was correct. Jack was already there, which meant that he had to get there, and fighting against fate would do nothing because, at least in this respect; it was already set in stone.

It was just that honking maniac that was actually to blame.

Edit: And people, come on. I'm disappointed in you all. The reason that this particular timeline is the Alpha Timeline, is because of The Ultimate Riddle, it's just how everything worked out in the end. You don't get punished for deviating from it, you just don't quite exist to begin with, except in an imaginary sense. Although less imaginary than actual imagination, obviously.

yeah ok i get it now.

thanks for clearing it up by making your post as succinct as possible. i suppose gamzee (and by extension karkat) are the reasons to blame for all this shit but i wonder how much of an influence karkat had over fucking up the kids session. jack's the cancer, but gamzee turned him into a threat. hmmmm

[Sparrowsmith]

Though I disagree with a few parts this is the basic theory I (and I assume Conspicuous) is working off of.

Probably one of the most consistent theories on stable time loops, and 'the ultimate riddle' in general. Thanks for the read.

Most of this discussion has already been addressed in canon, and observations made in the above link. Characters have always made choices that they would make. Paradox space has never forced someone to act outside of their usual intentions. If it has already going to have happened, then it's only because once you get there you are going to have wanted to do it.
Homestuck isn't even the first story to use time travel in this way. It's your standard optimistic view of time travel, wherein you only contribute acts you perceive to be positive into time. Some stories prefer the negative view, where any knowledge learned can force you into doing things you wouldn't normally do, but Homestuck has, thus far, never done this.
This pretty much destroys the concept that Paradox Space can dictate anything. The more canonical answer is that Paradox Space molds people into characters that, when the time comes, will act within their own intentions to produce the desired result.

Now, I seriously doubt that Bec would have prototyped himself if the doll had been prototyped. His power should be similar to Scratch's, and Scratch could teleport a meteor like it wasn't even a thing. bec didn't need sprite powers.
In fact, if we are to take Jack's 'dog' thoughts into account, then we can assume that Bec was, for all intents and purposes, just a stupid dog. A very loving, and by dog standard's intelligent, dog, but certainly not capable of ascertaining the dangers of the meteor.
I would guess that maybe, possibly, some instinctive FG part of Bec knew that prototyping with the sprite would imbue him with all the knowledge he would need to save Jade. However, we've also seen that sprites have a natural affinity towards prototyping with certain things (namely living or once living beings.) and we don't know whether a dog chosen by the sprite would somehow be called towards it.

That said, the most likely reasoning of all is that Bec looked at the BIG BALL OF SHINY and thought to himself
"ooo, big ball of shiny!"
and then jumped on it the way basically any animal will follow a laser pen. A hypothetical objector might claim that Bec is much smarter than that, and he possibly is, seeing as he attempted to protect Jade from dangers, but this is still a dog, as Hussie has made abundantly clear. Jack is often unable to not think about doggie treats and playing fetch, nor is he capable of harming Jade. Jack still sets up Jade's death though, which means Bec's intelligence is limited to what he's seeing directly. He can't stop Jack from putting a plan into motion, because he lacks the intelligence to understand or with-strain him.
If Bec was intelligent enough to understand the repercussions of spriting himself, then it is very likely he would instantly rig their session for success, but instead he hung around Jade, because he's a dog, and that's what dogs do.

[Sightedjt]

My view on is it that bec HAD to get prototypred.
As A2 was chronologically before B1, and that had jack going on his rampage there, using first guardian powers and dog appearance.
As such, the powers had to come from somewhere, and the only place they could come from is bec, as no other first guardian was present to prototype.
The rampage in A2 was part of the alpha timeline for that universe, and so jack would have to obtain first guardian powers earlier in his personal timeline in order for the alpha to take place, malking it inevitable that bec would be prototyped. Vriska was helping the inevitable along, just so she could have one more iron in the fire.